9 ms·

I hate asking about downvotes, but I'm really confused why this comment has been pushed to the bottom. Why?

jakeogh 10y ago
Well, it's not a "Muslim Ban" for starters. Look up the countries with the highest Muslim populations, then cross ref to the list of countries that have a 90 day (to start) ban.
- 3JPLW 10y ago
  It's a Muslim ban when it affects majority-Muslim countries and has a minority exemption. That's pretty clear to me.
  - jakeogh 10y ago
    The top 6 countries [1] with the highest Muslim populations are not (temp) banned, yet somehow it's a "Muslim Ban". [1] http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/pf_15-04-02_projectionstables74/ http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/pf_15-04-02_proje...
    - tacomonstrous 10y ago
      This is semantics. It was imposed with the intention of being a Muslim ban, but with plausible deniability. See Giuliani's comments here: http://nypost.com/2017/01/29/trump-asked-me-how-to-legally-create-muslim-ban-giuliani/ http://nypost.com/2017/01/29/trump-asked-me-how-to-legally-c...
      - 551199 10y ago
        DHS picked the countries to ban when Obama was still the President[0]. I'm being flagged for stating the inconvenient truth that this isn't 'muslim ban'. Most muslim countries aren't even affected. [0]https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-tr...
        tacomonstrous 10y ago
        Are you saying that Giuliani is lying?
        551199 10y ago
        Are you saying Obama wanted a muslim ban? Most muslim countries aren't even affected so if you read it's a muslim ban you have been reading fake news.
        tacomonstrous 10y ago
        One person said they were implementing a Muslim ban, and the other... well, he didn't (not to mention his policy was materially different from the current one). I don't need to read fake news to understand the difference.
        3JPLW 10y ago
        Again, semantics. It's being called a Muslim ban because it _only_ affects Muslims. Sure, it doesn't affect _all_ Muslims, but it still singles out one religious group.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        It's being called a Muslim ban because Trump called for a Muslim ban, shifted the definition many times, and then issued this order with similar justification and overlapping provisions to many versions (though not identical to any version) of the Muslim ban. It neither effects all Muslims nor (since it includes a temporary complete ban on all refugees) only Muslims, but it's still overtly targeted first and foremost at Muslims.
        3JPLW 10y ago
        Ah, yes, thank you. I appreciate the correction.
        grzm 10y ago
    - 551199 10y ago
      Yes, 'muslim ban' is fake news. Too bad democrats can't think to themselves and have to offshore thinking to MSM who push this fake narrative.
      - sctb 10y ago
        We've already asked you to please stop using HN primarily for this kind of political battle. We have to ban accounts that continue to abuse the site this way.
        551199 10y ago
        For all the talk of diversity you can’t get more homogeneous than this site. Anyone with dissent views are pushed out. On top of that it seems to be okay to call Trump and his supporters openly racist, white supremacist, homophobic, anti-semite and what have you. Talk about double standards.
- somebehemoth 10y ago
  "President Donald Trump on Friday banned nationals of seven Muslim-majority countries from entering the United States..." http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/text-of-trump-executive-order-nation-ban-refugees/ http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/text-of-trump-executi... Trump’s campaign in 2015 said it wanted “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.” https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-...
- nerfhammer 10y ago
  "Rudy Giuliani said Donald Trump came to him for guidance on implementing a so-called “Muslim ban” and from that, he helped construct the controversial order crippling international travel from predominantly Muslim countries." http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-tasked-craft-muslim-ban-article-1.2958588 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump...
- lifeformed 10y ago
  It is a Muslim ban. It's just how you do it politically. You start with the goal of banning Muslims, then you see how to implement it in a way that gives you plausible deniability. You couldn't get away with just saying, "No Muslims allowed." That is way too overtly racist and illegal. So you look for existing groupings of countries that align with your goals. You find a list of countries banned on the visa waiver program made by the previous administration, and it covers many Muslim nations that are in the international spotlight right now. They're hot topics and it fits your criteria well. (Also they conveniently don't intersect with your business interests, so that's another plus.) You ignore Indonesia and India because they aren't in the news for terrorism, so it doesn't fit your narrative. Now you can get away with banning these "previously chosen" countries, by saying it's for national security, while you wink to your more explicitly racist supporters. You achieved their racist goal, de-facto, while having a non-racist "legitimate" excuse. This is how institutional racism works. You have a racist goal in mind, and you implement it through actions that are under the guise of something more reasonable. It has the same effect as if you just made some overtly racist policy, but you can do it legally and with plausible deniability. Also, if it helps, Rudy Giuliani said on national TV that Trump told him to do literally exactly this.
  - battlebot 10y ago
    Until Muslims can be trusted to peacefully coexist in the west and not undermine western legal tradition, I'm fine with a Muslim ban. I feel some tinge of compassion for the non-violent muslims out there, but in an us vs. them world, not one more inch will be given up to this clash of old world vs. new world. If Islam can't find a way to make a peaceful journey in the world, then it has to go. Moderate Muslims need to step up and completely denounce their violent sub-groups. COMPLETELY DENOUNCE--not quietly bolster or nod knowingly to. It is not institutional racism to see that a violent ideology is harming American citizens. There have already been many attacks inside the US. The media does its utmost to downplay the fact that radical Islam is behind all of those attacks.
    - mozumder 10y ago
      I agree that we should ban whites from this country, since they commit the vast majority of murders here in America. So many innocent lives have been lost to white murderers that own guns. I mean, if we're going to be bigoted and ascribe negative traits to entire groups based on the actions of a few, shouldn't we do that to protect our safety by ascribing whites as murderers based on them committing the vast majority of the 17,000 murders that happen in our country every year? America needs to defend themselves against whites, who are placing carnage into our peaceful country with their murderous ways. If whites can't find a way to make peaceful journey in the world, then they have to go. Moderate whites need to step up and completely denounce their violent sub-groups. COMPLETELY DENOUNCE -- not quietly bolster or nod knowingly to. (this is how bigotry works, and remember, it can go both ways. Do you want this kind of bigotry to happen to whites? I get that it's hard to not be bigoted when it's so much easier mentally to associate a race with the actions of a few, but that's what it takes to be smart- you have to actually think instead of being mentally lazy) Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/385/ https://xkcd.com/385/

Well, it's not a "Muslim Ban" for starters. Look up the countries with the highest Muslim populations, then cross ref to the list of countries that have a 90 day (to start) ban.

3JPLW 10y ago
It's a Muslim ban when it affects majority-Muslim countries and has a minority exemption. That's pretty clear to me.
- jakeogh 10y ago
  The top 6 countries [1] with the highest Muslim populations are not (temp) banned, yet somehow it's a "Muslim Ban". [1] http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/pf_15-04-02_projectionstables74/ http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/pf_15-04-02_proje...
  - tacomonstrous 10y ago
    This is semantics. It was imposed with the intention of being a Muslim ban, but with plausible deniability. See Giuliani's comments here: http://nypost.com/2017/01/29/trump-asked-me-how-to-legally-create-muslim-ban-giuliani/ http://nypost.com/2017/01/29/trump-asked-me-how-to-legally-c...
    - 551199 10y ago
      DHS picked the countries to ban when Obama was still the President[0]. I'm being flagged for stating the inconvenient truth that this isn't 'muslim ban'. Most muslim countries aren't even affected. [0]https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-tr...
      - tacomonstrous 10y ago
        Are you saying that Giuliani is lying?
        551199 10y ago
        Are you saying Obama wanted a muslim ban? Most muslim countries aren't even affected so if you read it's a muslim ban you have been reading fake news.
        tacomonstrous 10y ago
        One person said they were implementing a Muslim ban, and the other... well, he didn't (not to mention his policy was materially different from the current one). I don't need to read fake news to understand the difference.
      - 3JPLW 10y ago
        Again, semantics. It's being called a Muslim ban because it _only_ affects Muslims. Sure, it doesn't affect _all_ Muslims, but it still singles out one religious group.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        It's being called a Muslim ban because Trump called for a Muslim ban, shifted the definition many times, and then issued this order with similar justification and overlapping provisions to many versions (though not identical to any version) of the Muslim ban. It neither effects all Muslims nor (since it includes a temporary complete ban on all refugees) only Muslims, but it's still overtly targeted first and foremost at Muslims.
        3JPLW 10y ago
        Ah, yes, thank you. I appreciate the correction.
      - grzm 10y ago
  - 551199 10y ago
    Yes, 'muslim ban' is fake news. Too bad democrats can't think to themselves and have to offshore thinking to MSM who push this fake narrative.
    - sctb 10y ago
      We've already asked you to please stop using HN primarily for this kind of political battle. We have to ban accounts that continue to abuse the site this way.
      - 551199 10y ago
        For all the talk of diversity you can’t get more homogeneous than this site. Anyone with dissent views are pushed out. On top of that it seems to be okay to call Trump and his supporters openly racist, white supremacist, homophobic, anti-semite and what have you. Talk about double standards.
somebehemoth 10y ago
"President Donald Trump on Friday banned nationals of seven Muslim-majority countries from entering the United States..." http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/text-of-trump-executive-order-nation-ban-refugees/ http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/text-of-trump-executi... Trump’s campaign in 2015 said it wanted “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.” https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-...
nerfhammer 10y ago
"Rudy Giuliani said Donald Trump came to him for guidance on implementing a so-called “Muslim ban” and from that, he helped construct the controversial order crippling international travel from predominantly Muslim countries." http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-tasked-craft-muslim-ban-article-1.2958588 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump...
lifeformed 10y ago
It is a Muslim ban. It's just how you do it politically. You start with the goal of banning Muslims, then you see how to implement it in a way that gives you plausible deniability. You couldn't get away with just saying, "No Muslims allowed." That is way too overtly racist and illegal. So you look for existing groupings of countries that align with your goals. You find a list of countries banned on the visa waiver program made by the previous administration, and it covers many Muslim nations that are in the international spotlight right now. They're hot topics and it fits your criteria well. (Also they conveniently don't intersect with your business interests, so that's another plus.) You ignore Indonesia and India because they aren't in the news for terrorism, so it doesn't fit your narrative. Now you can get away with banning these "previously chosen" countries, by saying it's for national security, while you wink to your more explicitly racist supporters. You achieved their racist goal, de-facto, while having a non-racist "legitimate" excuse. This is how institutional racism works. You have a racist goal in mind, and you implement it through actions that are under the guise of something more reasonable. It has the same effect as if you just made some overtly racist policy, but you can do it legally and with plausible deniability. Also, if it helps, Rudy Giuliani said on national TV that Trump told him to do literally exactly this.
- battlebot 10y ago
  Until Muslims can be trusted to peacefully coexist in the west and not undermine western legal tradition, I'm fine with a Muslim ban. I feel some tinge of compassion for the non-violent muslims out there, but in an us vs. them world, not one more inch will be given up to this clash of old world vs. new world. If Islam can't find a way to make a peaceful journey in the world, then it has to go. Moderate Muslims need to step up and completely denounce their violent sub-groups. COMPLETELY DENOUNCE--not quietly bolster or nod knowingly to. It is not institutional racism to see that a violent ideology is harming American citizens. There have already been many attacks inside the US. The media does its utmost to downplay the fact that radical Islam is behind all of those attacks.
  - mozumder 10y ago
    I agree that we should ban whites from this country, since they commit the vast majority of murders here in America. So many innocent lives have been lost to white murderers that own guns. I mean, if we're going to be bigoted and ascribe negative traits to entire groups based on the actions of a few, shouldn't we do that to protect our safety by ascribing whites as murderers based on them committing the vast majority of the 17,000 murders that happen in our country every year? America needs to defend themselves against whites, who are placing carnage into our peaceful country with their murderous ways. If whites can't find a way to make peaceful journey in the world, then they have to go. Moderate whites need to step up and completely denounce their violent sub-groups. COMPLETELY DENOUNCE -- not quietly bolster or nod knowingly to. (this is how bigotry works, and remember, it can go both ways. Do you want this kind of bigotry to happen to whites? I get that it's hard to not be bigoted when it's so much easier mentally to associate a race with the actions of a few, but that's what it takes to be smart- you have to actually think instead of being mentally lazy) Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/385/ https://xkcd.com/385/