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Turns out, that isn't Obama's only military campaign. Even though the blame for ISIL's existence falls on the shoulders of both him and Bush. I would classify

by lend000 10y ago

Turns out, that isn't Obama's only military campaign. Even though the blame for ISIL's existence falls on the shoulders of both him and Bush. I would classify the belligerence into four categories: arms shipments, drone strikes, 'war', and other destabilization http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/07/tomdispatch-dc-congress-defense-international-arms-business http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/07/tomdispatch-dc-c... https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/the-death-toll-in-yemen-is-so-high-the-red-cross-has-started-donating-morgues-to-hospitals/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/the-death-toll-in-yemen-... http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/12/amnesty-international-us-sent-egypt.html http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/12/amnesty-internat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drone_strikes_in_Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drone_strikes_in_Pakis... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drone_strikes_in_Yemen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drone_strikes_in_Yemen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_S... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932014) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2015%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2015%E2%80... http://www.mintpressnews.com/barack-obama-the-nobel-peace-prize-winner-whos-bombed-7-countries/208748/ http://www.mintpressnews.com/barack-obama-the-nobel-peace-pr... It's ironic that the same administration spoke often about restricting rights to bear arms at home and regulating commercial drones. You could probably consider his renewals of the Patriot Act/ NDAA and other blatantly illegal surveillance that falls outside the scope of even NDAA to be considered a form of botched foreign policy, which unfortunately is mostly domestic policy now. By the way, the UN isn't some wise, omnipotent, objective organization. It mostly does what the US wants militarily, since the US provides most of the weapons to our allies (by allowing our contractors like Boeing to sell them last-generation weapons)

Mithaldu 10y ago
> Turns out, that isn't Obama's only military campaign. We were talking about the bombings in the post a few further up though. Let's stick with one topic for now. E: And if you want to bring in further topics, at least do more than "here's a link to an list of attacks" without at least exploring why they were made and how they're a sign of belligerence (i.e. what better options existed). E2: I've seen your response below and it is not worth adding another post to this. Sad to see someone drop any pretense of good faith and jump straight into rethorical warfare.
- lend000 10y ago
  > We were talking about the bombings in the post a few further up though. Let's stick with one topic for now. Ugh. You responded to my comment which stated "There's a lot of denial on HN about the magnitude of Obama's foreign policy belligerence." Trolling/nitpicking is not welcome here, please. > And if you want to bring in further topics, at least do more than "here's a link to an list of attacks" without at least exploring why they were made and how they're a sign of belligerence (i.e. what better options existed). Would you like me to write you a thesis? I don't think you would appreciate it enough to justify the effort. The facts are there -- there are an overwhelming number of topics to explore related to Obama's use of aggressive foreign policy (aggressive defined as leading to people dying). If you truly do not believe Obama was a belligerent, you really should read through some of that. Sorry to burn down your idol.
KirinDave 10y ago
I agree about some of your points, but the Patriot Act was not Obama's to kill, and we both know it. A lot of what Obama had to do to get other policies enacted is not optimal, but that _is_ what politics requires for slow, steady progress. And Obama has always been a very vocal proponent of that gradual process.
- lend000 10y ago
  > A lot of what Obama had to do to get other policies enacted is not optimal, but that _is_ what politics requires for slow, steady progress. I'm not convinced we have made any progress on either surveillance or foreign policy between Jan 2009 and Jan 2017.
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    I'd argue that Obama made SUBSTANTIAL improvements to foreign relationships with the majority of the world. This is definitely not a rejection or denial of the constant bombings and drone warfare we've seen, but we really shouldn't normalize his predecessors insane foreign or surveillance policies. Even of Obama failed on these two fronts, I'd argue that his work on domestic policy and economic recovery makes him a notable president, especially given the absolutely astounding difficulty he faced from the constant racist catcalling and obstructionism of the RNC and conservative media.
    - lend000 10y ago
      > I'd argue that Obama made SUBSTANTIAL improvements to foreign relationships with the majority of the world. How so? Obama essentially renewed the Cold War Lite (Russian Syria vs US Syria -- it's 70's Afghanistan all over again). In fact, I could not disagree more, and I think this is a great example of "denialism." I will give Obama props for Cuba, but I don't know of another notable improvement made by the US, and it certainly does not cancel out the Russia fiasco, nor the military engagements that this thread is about. > Even of Obama failed on these two fronts, I'd argue that his work on domestic policy and economic recovery makes him a notable president, This is sort of off topic anyway (did not initially intend to get into a full review of Obama's successfulness), BUT I think it needs to be addressed. First of all, what are you specifically talking about? Make sure to link what has been done by Obama (executive policy). I hope this doesn't turn into something like "gas prices fell under Obama," which had absolutely nothing to do with him, and yet I hear it all the time from folks who recently learned how to put the square in the square hole. > especially given the absolutely astounding difficulty he faced from the constant racist catcalling and obstructionism of the RNC and conservative media. Alright, this is clearly just being an Obamapologist...

by lend000 10y ago

Mithaldu 10y ago

> Turns out, that isn't Obama's only military campaign. We were talking about the bombings in the post a few further up though. Let's stick with one topic for now. E: And if you want to bring in further topics, at least do more than "here's a link to an list of attacks" without at least exploring why they were made and how they're a sign of belligerence (i.e. what better options existed). E2: I've seen your response below and it is not worth adding another post to this. Sad to see someone drop any pretense of good faith and jump straight into rethorical warfare.

lend000 10y ago
> We were talking about the bombings in the post a few further up though. Let's stick with one topic for now. Ugh. You responded to my comment which stated "There's a lot of denial on HN about the magnitude of Obama's foreign policy belligerence." Trolling/nitpicking is not welcome here, please. > And if you want to bring in further topics, at least do more than "here's a link to an list of attacks" without at least exploring why they were made and how they're a sign of belligerence (i.e. what better options existed). Would you like me to write you a thesis? I don't think you would appreciate it enough to justify the effort. The facts are there -- there are an overwhelming number of topics to explore related to Obama's use of aggressive foreign policy (aggressive defined as leading to people dying). If you truly do not believe Obama was a belligerent, you really should read through some of that. Sorry to burn down your idol.

KirinDave 10y ago

I agree about some of your points, but the Patriot Act was not Obama's to kill, and we both know it. A lot of what Obama had to do to get other policies enacted is not optimal, but that _is_ what politics requires for slow, steady progress. And Obama has always been a very vocal proponent of that gradual process.

lend000 10y ago
> A lot of what Obama had to do to get other policies enacted is not optimal, but that _is_ what politics requires for slow, steady progress. I'm not convinced we have made any progress on either surveillance or foreign policy between Jan 2009 and Jan 2017.
- KirinDave 10y ago
  I'd argue that Obama made SUBSTANTIAL improvements to foreign relationships with the majority of the world. This is definitely not a rejection or denial of the constant bombings and drone warfare we've seen, but we really shouldn't normalize his predecessors insane foreign or surveillance policies. Even of Obama failed on these two fronts, I'd argue that his work on domestic policy and economic recovery makes him a notable president, especially given the absolutely astounding difficulty he faced from the constant racist catcalling and obstructionism of the RNC and conservative media.
  - lend000 10y ago
    > I'd argue that Obama made SUBSTANTIAL improvements to foreign relationships with the majority of the world. How so? Obama essentially renewed the Cold War Lite (Russian Syria vs US Syria -- it's 70's Afghanistan all over again). In fact, I could not disagree more, and I think this is a great example of "denialism." I will give Obama props for Cuba, but I don't know of another notable improvement made by the US, and it certainly does not cancel out the Russia fiasco, nor the military engagements that this thread is about. > Even of Obama failed on these two fronts, I'd argue that his work on domestic policy and economic recovery makes him a notable president, This is sort of off topic anyway (did not initially intend to get into a full review of Obama's successfulness), BUT I think it needs to be addressed. First of all, what are you specifically talking about? Make sure to link what has been done by Obama (executive policy). I hope this doesn't turn into something like "gas prices fell under Obama," which had absolutely nothing to do with him, and yet I hear it all the time from folks who recently learned how to put the square in the square hole. > especially given the absolutely astounding difficulty he faced from the constant racist catcalling and obstructionism of the RNC and conservative media. Alright, this is clearly just being an Obamapologist...