5 ms·

I can't accept that heroin and alcohol are equal in that sense. I would be very skeptical about any sources claiming this equality. Ease of production, pharmaco

by jayajay 10y ago

I can't accept that heroin and alcohol are equal in that sense. I would be very skeptical about any sources claiming this equality. Ease of production, pharmacodynamics, etc. Edit: Ideally, humans wouldn't be consuming poison? But, what is poison? It's a lot more complicated than "alcohol is bad" or "heroin is bad". Maybe you are right, letting down the flood gates will surely kill people who don't have control, and we'll be OK asymptotically. Making alcohol legal certainly killed people who wouldn't have died, and saved people who would have died. At some point, this is just a variation of the trolley problem. If heroin was made CVS-able without prescription, I would not guarantee that I wouldn't try it, and that scares me because I know how dangerous it is.

paulmd 10y ago
Honest question, do you have an alcohol problem or addictive personality that is driving this fear? If not, what keeps you from drinking yourself to sleep on the sidewalk every night? When it comes down to it, not all drugs are equal. Heroin isn't "alcohol but worse". People who drink tend to get pretty nasty sometimes, and that's a social harm that someone who's nodding doesn't perpetrate. And in terms of physical harm, heroin is actually pretty low compared to alcohol. Lots of people destroy their livers with alcohol and die early, while there's an awful lot of rockstars who do piles of heroin and cocaine and live to their 70s and beyond (we need to start worrying about the kind of world we're going to leave for Keith Richards). The harm comes from getting bathtub stuff of uncertain potency and purity, and from the things people need to do to afford their fix. If it's clean and affordable you tend to do fairly well on both the 'personal' and 'social' harm aspects. Obviously that's not how DARE told you to feel, but the fact is that the current state of things is not the only one that is ever possible. You don't know what social use would look like in a society with legalized heroin usage. If you eliminate the need to commit crime to obtain black-market drugs at obscene prices, a lot of the harms of heroin go away. Some people will still choose to do it, but we free up a whole bunch of police money that can be redirected to free treatment resources to help people quit when they realize they aren't going to find happiness in drugs.
- jayajay 10y ago
  If this were several years ago and I was still a college freshman, I bet I would have tried heroin if it was available for 5 bucks a pop next to the Benadryl at CVS. Things much more innocent than heroin get in the way of a freshman, so yeah, I would be concerned if heroin was on the shelf for anyone who is 18 right now.
  - chillacy 10y ago
    I would've too, but I'm fairly confident it would have been a one-time-only thing. I had a roommate, smart lawyer kid, who talked casually about doing cocaine one day, which surprised me since back then I drew a line between "hard drugs" like cocaine, H, meth, and "soft drugs" like marijuana, LSD, and the like. And this guy seemed (and still is) like such a smart, successful person. He told me that drugs don't change who you are... if you're a cautious person who has self control, that doesn't change.
    - jayajay 10y ago
      I am surprised to hear you say that LSD is a soft drug. LSD can be dangerous for certain people. Even marijuana is not recommended for some people.
- edblarney 10y ago
  " People who drink tend to get pretty nasty sometimes, and that's a social harm that someone who's nodding doesn't perpetrate." If everyone did heroin today - instead of drinking - the world would fall apart. Can you imagine 50 000 people at a Football game, all doing smack? Sure, it would be a fun game. Within days, 10% of them would be full on addicts. Within weeks maybe 50% of them would. Those people would go through hell or high water to stay permanently high. Giving them 'cheap and safe' smack at Walgreens is not going to help them - it would destroy them. "If you eliminate the need to commit crime to obtain black-market drugs at obscene prices, a lot of the harms of heroin go away." Have you actually ever met an addict - do you realize how insanely destroyed their lives become? Do you think that by making the drug cheaper and more accessible that this is going to 'make them better'? No - it's only helping to kill them.
theptip 10y ago
Prof. Nutt in the UK did some research on this, if you're interested in an objective analysis of this subject. http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus...
- jayajay 10y ago
  I am skeptical of the 16 metrics used to rank harm on a 0 to 100 scale.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    His research was sufficiently well regarded, that when the British government sacked him from their advisory panel, all the other scientists resigned in protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#Government_positions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#Government_position...

by jayajay 10y ago

paulmd 10y ago

Honest question, do you have an alcohol problem or addictive personality that is driving this fear? If not, what keeps you from drinking yourself to sleep on the sidewalk every night? When it comes down to it, not all drugs are equal. Heroin isn't "alcohol but worse". People who drink tend to get pretty nasty sometimes, and that's a social harm that someone who's nodding doesn't perpetrate. And in terms of physical harm, heroin is actually pretty low compared to alcohol. Lots of people destroy their livers with alcohol and die early, while there's an awful lot of rockstars who do piles of heroin and cocaine and live to their 70s and beyond (we need to start worrying about the kind of world we're going to leave for Keith Richards). The harm comes from getting bathtub stuff of uncertain potency and purity, and from the things people need to do to afford their fix. If it's clean and affordable you tend to do fairly well on both the 'personal' and 'social' harm aspects. Obviously that's not how DARE told you to feel, but the fact is that the current state of things is not the only one that is ever possible. You don't know what social use would look like in a society with legalized heroin usage. If you eliminate the need to commit crime to obtain black-market drugs at obscene prices, a lot of the harms of heroin go away. Some people will still choose to do it, but we free up a whole bunch of police money that can be redirected to free treatment resources to help people quit when they realize they aren't going to find happiness in drugs.

jayajay 10y ago
If this were several years ago and I was still a college freshman, I bet I would have tried heroin if it was available for 5 bucks a pop next to the Benadryl at CVS. Things much more innocent than heroin get in the way of a freshman, so yeah, I would be concerned if heroin was on the shelf for anyone who is 18 right now.
- chillacy 10y ago
  I would've too, but I'm fairly confident it would have been a one-time-only thing. I had a roommate, smart lawyer kid, who talked casually about doing cocaine one day, which surprised me since back then I drew a line between "hard drugs" like cocaine, H, meth, and "soft drugs" like marijuana, LSD, and the like. And this guy seemed (and still is) like such a smart, successful person. He told me that drugs don't change who you are... if you're a cautious person who has self control, that doesn't change.
  - jayajay 10y ago
    I am surprised to hear you say that LSD is a soft drug. LSD can be dangerous for certain people. Even marijuana is not recommended for some people.
edblarney 10y ago
" People who drink tend to get pretty nasty sometimes, and that's a social harm that someone who's nodding doesn't perpetrate." If everyone did heroin today - instead of drinking - the world would fall apart. Can you imagine 50 000 people at a Football game, all doing smack? Sure, it would be a fun game. Within days, 10% of them would be full on addicts. Within weeks maybe 50% of them would. Those people would go through hell or high water to stay permanently high. Giving them 'cheap and safe' smack at Walgreens is not going to help them - it would destroy them. "If you eliminate the need to commit crime to obtain black-market drugs at obscene prices, a lot of the harms of heroin go away." Have you actually ever met an addict - do you realize how insanely destroyed their lives become? Do you think that by making the drug cheaper and more accessible that this is going to 'make them better'? No - it's only helping to kill them.

theptip 10y ago

Prof. Nutt in the UK did some research on this, if you're interested in an objective analysis of this subject. http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus...

jayajay 10y ago
I am skeptical of the 16 metrics used to rank harm on a 0 to 100 scale.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  His research was sufficiently well regarded, that when the British government sacked him from their advisory panel, all the other scientists resigned in protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#Government_positions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#Government_position...