5 ms·

The Midwest/East Coast really need this, since that is where all the powder, fentanyl-laced heroin goes. People are dropping like flies in those regions of the

The Midwest/East Coast really need this, since that is where all the powder, fentanyl-laced heroin goes. People are dropping like flies in those regions of the country, while I would imagine the West Coast, where black tar heroin is sold, hasn't seen as much of an increase in overdoses/deaths.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
What's the difference between powder and black-tar heroin?
- JshWright 10y ago
  Black-tar is, as the name implies, a black (or very dark brown) compound, generally pretty sticky (though it can be dried into a powder). White powder heroin is, as the name implies, a white powder. Fentanyl is a white or yellowish powder. For a variety of reasons, it is far more common for white powder heroin to be laced with fentanyl (which is hundreds of times more potent).
  - stryk 10y ago
    "Powder" Heroin is most often light-ish brown/tan (the darker the better, generally -- with exceptions of course). It will still cook up to the familiar color of motor oil. White powder is almost unheard of these days. While generally considered to be of better quality, it's often referred to as "China White" -- I believe this stems from the heroin boom of the 1970's when most of it was imported from the Far East after the Vietnam War era.
    - pizza 10y ago
      What is sold as "china white" nowadays will often contain fentanyl
      - JshWright 10y ago
        Indeed. That's mostly what we're seeing here in central New York.
- pauljaworski 10y ago
  In addition to what the others have said, black tar is essentially heroin that is made by skipping a few of the steps in the "standard" heroin synthesis process. Whichever cartel controls West Coast distribution decided that was good enough for them, and customers would buy it regardless. I'm actually curious as to why the other cartels bother producing powder heroin at all.
  - xorxornop 10y ago
    Presumably because it packs to a higher density and is purer, and since sentencing is done by weight irrespective of how much active drug it actually contains, it winds up being essentially a forcing function toward making the strongest substance you can. Such laws therefore are almost entirely responsible for why drugs have gotten stronger and stronger over the years, with the increased risk this brings.
LargeCompanies 10y ago
On Facebook here in the middle to upper class suburbs of Baltimore I see friends of friends OD and dying once a month. I don't understand why as growing up I dont recall such an epidemic, yet I do recall a ton of don't do drugs type of education. Has all those type PSAs & education in schools cease to exist and or not as well funded as back in the 80s and 90s?
- nfbush 10y ago
  Rise in overdoses can be attributed to dealers adding fentanyl (an extrememly strong synthetic opiate) to their product. If a particular salesman has a product which people have reportedly overdosed on will flock to them as they must be selling a stronger product. Another scenario is where the chemical isn't there in the first place and the dealer is simply mixing fentanyl with a filler, due to it's extreme potency (a dose being less than a milligram), making even a small mistake in the mixing can lead to many overdoses especially with tolerant users used to taking larger amounts.
  - pauljaworski 10y ago
    Fentanyl is actually being synthesized by the Mexican cartels now and added to the heroin before it even makes it to the street dealers. It's getting really crazy.
    - LargeCompanies 10y ago
      So Trump isn't so crazy on this whole wall issue .... I don't believe a wall is needed, but it should be used a hammer to get Mexico to clean up it's act for it's people. Canadians are not flooding into the US ... why are Mexicans then ... why isn't Mexico a place where it's citizens want to remain? Why are Mexicans as a whole not coming to the US high skilled like Indians are? Is their education system non-existent ... it's so corrupt your just struggling to live day to day? IF that's the case as Americans we shouldn't be angry about Mexico's lack of care for it's people due to those in power who are all about themselves/corrupt?
edblarney 10y ago
"People are dropping like flies in those regions of the country, while I would imagine the West Coast, where black tar heroin is sold, hasn't seen as much of an increase in overdoses/deaths." 'Harm reduction' programs don't really do that much. Since the 'Insite' facility in Vancouver opened - there has been basically no change in the number of users or ODs. The area around the clinic is still a zombie land - it's the only place in all of Canada that I'm afraid to walk down the street in the middle of the day. There has been a massive spike of ODs in Vancouver lately, but it's mostly due to fentanyl and other purity issues. I agree that 'doing heroin' should be treated more as a social health issue, and less as a criminal justice issue, but I'm entirely doubtful of the efficacy of shoot up clinics. They cost a lot, and the money just might be more effectively spent on other kinds of 'soft interventions'. I think the real value of the clinics boils down to the fact that while there, users can be convinced to join 'get clean' programs, and that the health workers can have 'trusted and direct' access to the community. And some 'harm reduction' efforts can be very destructive: in the Innes Road prison in Ottawa - if you go in with a heroin addiction - they give you three doses of "Diacetylmorphine" or whatever (similar to heroin) every day - and basically they keep their prisoners hooked. The users will go crazy in the time leading up to their 'dose time', screaming, banging on the door etc. etc.. 'Reducing short term harm' by giving people doses of a drug, several times a day, for months or years - is utterly worse than what those people might have to do were they to have to spend a few days in 'hard withdrawal' and then a few weeks in less severe withdrawal. Keeping prisoners hooked on extremely powerful opioids I think is a terrible form of 'cruel and unusual punishment'. 'Withdrawal' is not the end of the world, and usually it's not dangerous. It's inevitable. It's the 'first and most obvious step' of recovery. And the only path to recovery. And something and addict must eventually do - so 'going to prison' if anything, should be an opportunity to get them off of heroin. At least in a controlled environment they can be monitored during initial withdrawal, and have zero access afterwards for some time while in prison. (And yes, it's entirely possible to limit contraband drugs in prisons). FYI - I'm not suggesting prison for users, but at least those who go to jail for other things, it's a chance to get clean. Sadly, it seems there's just as much ideology and politicization of the 'harm reduction' approach as there is 'it's a crime/moral issue' approach.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

What's the difference between powder and black-tar heroin?

JshWright 10y ago
Black-tar is, as the name implies, a black (or very dark brown) compound, generally pretty sticky (though it can be dried into a powder). White powder heroin is, as the name implies, a white powder. Fentanyl is a white or yellowish powder. For a variety of reasons, it is far more common for white powder heroin to be laced with fentanyl (which is hundreds of times more potent).
- stryk 10y ago
  "Powder" Heroin is most often light-ish brown/tan (the darker the better, generally -- with exceptions of course). It will still cook up to the familiar color of motor oil. White powder is almost unheard of these days. While generally considered to be of better quality, it's often referred to as "China White" -- I believe this stems from the heroin boom of the 1970's when most of it was imported from the Far East after the Vietnam War era.
  - pizza 10y ago
    What is sold as "china white" nowadays will often contain fentanyl
    - JshWright 10y ago
      Indeed. That's mostly what we're seeing here in central New York.
pauljaworski 10y ago
In addition to what the others have said, black tar is essentially heroin that is made by skipping a few of the steps in the "standard" heroin synthesis process. Whichever cartel controls West Coast distribution decided that was good enough for them, and customers would buy it regardless. I'm actually curious as to why the other cartels bother producing powder heroin at all.
- xorxornop 10y ago
  Presumably because it packs to a higher density and is purer, and since sentencing is done by weight irrespective of how much active drug it actually contains, it winds up being essentially a forcing function toward making the strongest substance you can. Such laws therefore are almost entirely responsible for why drugs have gotten stronger and stronger over the years, with the increased risk this brings.

LargeCompanies 10y ago

On Facebook here in the middle to upper class suburbs of Baltimore I see friends of friends OD and dying once a month. I don't understand why as growing up I dont recall such an epidemic, yet I do recall a ton of don't do drugs type of education. Has all those type PSAs & education in schools cease to exist and or not as well funded as back in the 80s and 90s?

nfbush 10y ago
Rise in overdoses can be attributed to dealers adding fentanyl (an extrememly strong synthetic opiate) to their product. If a particular salesman has a product which people have reportedly overdosed on will flock to them as they must be selling a stronger product. Another scenario is where the chemical isn't there in the first place and the dealer is simply mixing fentanyl with a filler, due to it's extreme potency (a dose being less than a milligram), making even a small mistake in the mixing can lead to many overdoses especially with tolerant users used to taking larger amounts.
- pauljaworski 10y ago
  Fentanyl is actually being synthesized by the Mexican cartels now and added to the heroin before it even makes it to the street dealers. It's getting really crazy.
  - LargeCompanies 10y ago
    So Trump isn't so crazy on this whole wall issue .... I don't believe a wall is needed, but it should be used a hammer to get Mexico to clean up it's act for it's people. Canadians are not flooding into the US ... why are Mexicans then ... why isn't Mexico a place where it's citizens want to remain? Why are Mexicans as a whole not coming to the US high skilled like Indians are? Is their education system non-existent ... it's so corrupt your just struggling to live day to day? IF that's the case as Americans we shouldn't be angry about Mexico's lack of care for it's people due to those in power who are all about themselves/corrupt?

edblarney 10y ago

"People are dropping like flies in those regions of the country, while I would imagine the West Coast, where black tar heroin is sold, hasn't seen as much of an increase in overdoses/deaths." 'Harm reduction' programs don't really do that much. Since the 'Insite' facility in Vancouver opened - there has been basically no change in the number of users or ODs. The area around the clinic is still a zombie land - it's the only place in all of Canada that I'm afraid to walk down the street in the middle of the day. There has been a massive spike of ODs in Vancouver lately, but it's mostly due to fentanyl and other purity issues. I agree that 'doing heroin' should be treated more as a social health issue, and less as a criminal justice issue, but I'm entirely doubtful of the efficacy of shoot up clinics. They cost a lot, and the money just might be more effectively spent on other kinds of 'soft interventions'. I think the real value of the clinics boils down to the fact that while there, users can be convinced to join 'get clean' programs, and that the health workers can have 'trusted and direct' access to the community. And some 'harm reduction' efforts can be very destructive: in the Innes Road prison in Ottawa - if you go in with a heroin addiction - they give you three doses of "Diacetylmorphine" or whatever (similar to heroin) every day - and basically they keep their prisoners hooked. The users will go crazy in the time leading up to their 'dose time', screaming, banging on the door etc. etc.. 'Reducing short term harm' by giving people doses of a drug, several times a day, for months or years - is utterly worse than what those people might have to do were they to have to spend a few days in 'hard withdrawal' and then a few weeks in less severe withdrawal. Keeping prisoners hooked on extremely powerful opioids I think is a terrible form of 'cruel and unusual punishment'. 'Withdrawal' is not the end of the world, and usually it's not dangerous. It's inevitable. It's the 'first and most obvious step' of recovery. And the only path to recovery. And something and addict must eventually do - so 'going to prison' if anything, should be an opportunity to get them off of heroin. At least in a controlled environment they can be monitored during initial withdrawal, and have zero access afterwards for some time while in prison. (And yes, it's entirely possible to limit contraband drugs in prisons). FYI - I'm not suggesting prison for users, but at least those who go to jail for other things, it's a chance to get clean. Sadly, it seems there's just as much ideology and politicization of the 'harm reduction' approach as there is 'it's a crime/moral issue' approach.