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> Yep, freedom from programs that steal your private data. Freedom from programs that trash your battery. Freedom from porn. Yep, freedom. The times they are a

> Yep, freedom from programs that steal your private data. Freedom from programs that trash your battery. Freedom from porn. Yep, freedom. The times they are a changin’, and some traditional PC folks feel like their world is slipping away. It is. What he's advocating for the app store may be a good thing, but it's certainly insane to call it freedom. Freedom is when you can do whatever you want. When you restrict stuff, for better or worse, that's less freedom. Taking away all meaning from the word "freedom" is a really bad idea. There is simply no such thing as freedom from the option to watch porn if one wants to watch it. That's like freedom from truancy, or freedom from marijuana, or freedom from leaving your jail cell, enforced by the police. Some will argue those are good things, but none should argue those are freedoms.

ellyagg 16y ago
Actually, I think it's fairly well known that there's a tension between two real concepts of 'freedom from' and 'freedom to'.
- xenophanes 16y ago
  Yes, it's well known that there is an ongoing attack on the liberal idea of freedom which seeks even to destroy basic terminology. They're the same kind of people who made the word "liberal" mean "socialist" or "interventionist" which is something of the opposite of its original and true meaning. But the fact is freedom has a simple and plain meaning, and it's a meaning we need to have a word for. If you want to say that police stopping you from using marijuana is good, whatever, just make up some other word for that because that's the opposite of freedom. Or if you think people have the right to "freedom from want" at the expense of others, it's nothing but a nasty and misleading rhetorical trick to call that freedom. It may or may not be good, but you're taking away people's freedom of choice when you force them to provide for the poor. Force is not freedom, it's force, end of story.
  - starkfist 16y ago
    What is the simple and plain meaning of freedom?
    - xenophanes 16y ago
      Pasted from the dictionary: > the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint Or in my words "not being restricted or forced".
      - starkfist 16y ago
        except right below that in the definition: "The phrase "freedom from" can have as an object: fear, want, hunger, pain, disease, stress, depression, debt, poverty, necessity, violence, war, advertising, addiction, etc."
  - pohl 16y ago
    the opposite of its original and true meaning. You're using the word "true" here in the same sense as others do in phrases like "the one, true god". I'll step forward and be the heathen to the absolutist concept you idolize... But the fact is freedom has a simple and plain meaning ...actually, like many words, it has several. I opened my dictionary and can count seven different nuances in the entry. Here's the one I believe it was used in, and I see no problem accepting the intended semantics: "(freedom from) the state of not being subject to or affected by (a particular undesirable thing)"
    - xenophanes 16y ago
      I suppose you think that "freedom from freedom[1]" is a type of freedom? [1] This instance of the word "freedom" means "not being restricted or forced"
      - pohl 16y ago
        Look, I'm a fan of freedom in the sense that you wish the word was used in. I just recognize that there are other common meanings to the word, and that if Steve would like to use one of them, he should...how you say...be free to do so. I remember when my son went through a similar phase where he fell in love with the "one, true meaning" of various words, and the endless circular debates I enjoyed coming out of it. Good times. But even he, at a tender young age, learned that your freedoms and my freedoms can come in conflict with each other — that a utopia of everybody being infinitely free was not possible to realize. I believe the common phrase used to resolve such cases is "your freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose". Companies have a right to make design choices, set licensing terms, and decide what to stock in their stores (whether they be real or virtual). If you don't like their choices, you're free not to do business with them. If you don't want companies to have such freedoms, you and I will have to agree to disagree.
        andreyf 16y ago
        Do you guys realize there are books written about this? http://www.amazon.com/dp/0374158282 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0374158282
- jacoblyles 16y ago
  But one has to torture the English language a bit in the "freedom from" case.
  - samatman 16y ago
    Fat free?
jfager 16y ago
There is simply no such thing as freedom from the option to watch porn if one wants to watch it. You're missing his point. There's nothing on the iPad that prevents you from watching porn if you want to - Safari on iPad goes to the same porn sites as any browser anywhere else. What he's referring to is protecting your machine from porn adware, and providing effective parental controls.
- xenophanes 16y ago
  Look, I generally agree with Steve. I have no serious problem with how he runs the app store. I think he's providing something that his customers want. But are you telling me parental controls -- i.e. software to restrict the freedom of children -- should in any way be called freedom? For better or worse, restricting people is not freedom. What I'm saying is it's perverse to use words to mean their opposites. And BTW, as you surely know, porn apps are restricted in the app store. He thinks that is a way of protecting users from porn. It may well be the right decision, but protecting people from themselves is not increasing freedom.
  - ROFISH 16y ago
    There are two kinds of freedom. To bring up a different subject: There is the freedom to allow you to install Flash. There is also the freedom from the burden of Flash. My great fear about allowing Adobe to install Flash on the iPhone is that we will, again, be stuck with a buggy de facto standard with rebellion only in designer/developer websites while the big sites still use Flash. Forcing HTML5 forces competition in a much needed area (web video), even when it's competing devices that allows only one or the other. By all means vote with your wallet and buy something that frees and empowers you. While you might not like it, I personally like Steve's freedoms.
  - jfager 16y ago
    Minors don't have the same freedoms as adults, that's simply a social reality - they can't vote, can't drink, can't purchase cigarettes, can't enter into contracts, etc. Parental controls help protect a parent's freedom to raise their children as they see fit. I'm not claiming that the porn app restriction is increasing people's freedom. I'm claiming that when Jobs refers to "freedom from porn", he's referring to blocking the malicious pornographic adware that plagues exploited Windows machines, and providing effective parental controls.
tailrecursion 16y ago
Allowing a tyrant to exert his will may result in less freedom for others. Judging by the technical way you couched your argument, I think you're aware of the subtle way freedom works. It wasn't difficult for me to get what Steve was talking about. Suppose you are a developer. You are being given the option -- one might say the freedom -- to sign a contract that limits your freedom and that of others who sign it, in just such a way as to confer specific advantages on yourself and others, such as a porn-free environment. To claim that to be given that option necessarily limits one's freedom, would certainly be insane. (Edit: added comma, added clarifications)
Tycho 16y ago
I think he was knowingly diluting the meaning of the word 'freedom' in response to how the blogger used it. Che Guevara didn't die so we could run Linux on proprietary handheld devices.
jcooney 16y ago
Reminds me of a line from a song "Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose'".

ellyagg 16y ago

Actually, I think it's fairly well known that there's a tension between two real concepts of 'freedom from' and 'freedom to'.

xenophanes 16y ago
Yes, it's well known that there is an ongoing attack on the liberal idea of freedom which seeks even to destroy basic terminology. They're the same kind of people who made the word "liberal" mean "socialist" or "interventionist" which is something of the opposite of its original and true meaning. But the fact is freedom has a simple and plain meaning, and it's a meaning we need to have a word for. If you want to say that police stopping you from using marijuana is good, whatever, just make up some other word for that because that's the opposite of freedom. Or if you think people have the right to "freedom from want" at the expense of others, it's nothing but a nasty and misleading rhetorical trick to call that freedom. It may or may not be good, but you're taking away people's freedom of choice when you force them to provide for the poor. Force is not freedom, it's force, end of story.
- starkfist 16y ago
  What is the simple and plain meaning of freedom?
  - xenophanes 16y ago
    Pasted from the dictionary: > the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint Or in my words "not being restricted or forced".
    - starkfist 16y ago
      except right below that in the definition: "The phrase "freedom from" can have as an object: fear, want, hunger, pain, disease, stress, depression, debt, poverty, necessity, violence, war, advertising, addiction, etc."
- pohl 16y ago
  the opposite of its original and true meaning. You're using the word "true" here in the same sense as others do in phrases like "the one, true god". I'll step forward and be the heathen to the absolutist concept you idolize... But the fact is freedom has a simple and plain meaning ...actually, like many words, it has several. I opened my dictionary and can count seven different nuances in the entry. Here's the one I believe it was used in, and I see no problem accepting the intended semantics: "(freedom from) the state of not being subject to or affected by (a particular undesirable thing)"
  - xenophanes 16y ago
    I suppose you think that "freedom from freedom[1]" is a type of freedom? [1] This instance of the word "freedom" means "not being restricted or forced"
    - pohl 16y ago
      Look, I'm a fan of freedom in the sense that you wish the word was used in. I just recognize that there are other common meanings to the word, and that if Steve would like to use one of them, he should...how you say...be free to do so. I remember when my son went through a similar phase where he fell in love with the "one, true meaning" of various words, and the endless circular debates I enjoyed coming out of it. Good times. But even he, at a tender young age, learned that your freedoms and my freedoms can come in conflict with each other — that a utopia of everybody being infinitely free was not possible to realize. I believe the common phrase used to resolve such cases is "your freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose". Companies have a right to make design choices, set licensing terms, and decide what to stock in their stores (whether they be real or virtual). If you don't like their choices, you're free not to do business with them. If you don't want companies to have such freedoms, you and I will have to agree to disagree.
      - andreyf 16y ago
        Do you guys realize there are books written about this? http://www.amazon.com/dp/0374158282 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0374158282
jacoblyles 16y ago
But one has to torture the English language a bit in the "freedom from" case.
- samatman 16y ago
  Fat free?

jfager 16y ago

There is simply no such thing as freedom from the option to watch porn if one wants to watch it. You're missing his point. There's nothing on the iPad that prevents you from watching porn if you want to - Safari on iPad goes to the same porn sites as any browser anywhere else. What he's referring to is protecting your machine from porn adware, and providing effective parental controls.

xenophanes 16y ago
Look, I generally agree with Steve. I have no serious problem with how he runs the app store. I think he's providing something that his customers want. But are you telling me parental controls -- i.e. software to restrict the freedom of children -- should in any way be called freedom? For better or worse, restricting people is not freedom. What I'm saying is it's perverse to use words to mean their opposites. And BTW, as you surely know, porn apps are restricted in the app store. He thinks that is a way of protecting users from porn. It may well be the right decision, but protecting people from themselves is not increasing freedom.
- ROFISH 16y ago
  There are two kinds of freedom. To bring up a different subject: There is the freedom to allow you to install Flash. There is also the freedom from the burden of Flash. My great fear about allowing Adobe to install Flash on the iPhone is that we will, again, be stuck with a buggy de facto standard with rebellion only in designer/developer websites while the big sites still use Flash. Forcing HTML5 forces competition in a much needed area (web video), even when it's competing devices that allows only one or the other. By all means vote with your wallet and buy something that frees and empowers you. While you might not like it, I personally like Steve's freedoms.
- jfager 16y ago
  Minors don't have the same freedoms as adults, that's simply a social reality - they can't vote, can't drink, can't purchase cigarettes, can't enter into contracts, etc. Parental controls help protect a parent's freedom to raise their children as they see fit. I'm not claiming that the porn app restriction is increasing people's freedom. I'm claiming that when Jobs refers to "freedom from porn", he's referring to blocking the malicious pornographic adware that plagues exploited Windows machines, and providing effective parental controls.

tailrecursion 16y ago

Allowing a tyrant to exert his will may result in less freedom for others. Judging by the technical way you couched your argument, I think you're aware of the subtle way freedom works. It wasn't difficult for me to get what Steve was talking about. Suppose you are a developer. You are being given the option -- one might say the freedom -- to sign a contract that limits your freedom and that of others who sign it, in just such a way as to confer specific advantages on yourself and others, such as a porn-free environment. To claim that to be given that option necessarily limits one's freedom, would certainly be insane. (Edit: added comma, added clarifications)

Tycho 16y ago

I think he was knowingly diluting the meaning of the word 'freedom' in response to how the blogger used it. Che Guevara didn't die so we could run Linux on proprietary handheld devices.

jcooney 16y ago

Reminds me of a line from a song "Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose'".