4 ms·

Many HN readers (and Dem voters) are among the tech elite who at best benefit (and at worst promote) the fundamentalist neoliberal-corporate ideology that has c

Many HN readers (and Dem voters) are among the tech elite who at best benefit (and at worst promote) the fundamentalist neoliberal-corporate ideology that has crushed the US citizenry and contributed substantially to the von Clownstick revolt. They were the useful idiots content to keep their heads down, buy shitloads of expensive tech gadgetry, pay the elevated rents that dehomed locals, and obediently wrote code whilst their fellow citizens slept in cars. Well the 'minority' bit back. Irrationally, and probably fatally, but it was entirely predictable.

mikeash 10y ago
I'm rather sick of being blamed for Trump's election. How about the people who voted for the candidate from the party of personal responsibility take the responsibility for choosing who they voted for?
- crispinb 10y ago
  Of course they're responsible too. But mass-scale movements come from somewhere. They have systematic causes. The tech industry, and the ideology driving it, is manifestly amongst those causes.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Then we have a cause too, so why point the finger at us? Something else caused it! Or, I have a better idea: point the finger at the people who cast the votes.
    - concinds 10y ago
      That again ignores that these people are operating inside a system, not in a vacuum. If you want to assign blame, fine, but don't confuse that with problem-solving. The blame game will not make American democracy functional again, it'll make it even worse.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        When you point at techies as the cause, are you problem-solving, or playing the blame game? Sure looks like the latter to me. Edit: I get it. This doesn't help. The thing is, I don't know how to fix it. It looks like we're just fucked. I'm thinking and trying to come up with a fix but it's not working yet. And in the mean time, when someone tries to blame me for this mess I didn't cause and argued against, I'm going to push back.
        crispinb 10y ago
        Hmm. There's enough despair around and if my sharp wording added to it in your case I apologise. We're all bleeding and I need a longer posting delay. The causes of this mess are so widely distributed, finger-pointing is pointless (except von Clownstick -- I will not use his brand name -- and his crazed apparachniks who need blame aplenty)
        concinds 10y ago
        For the record I never blamed "techies". It's simple: political discourse is dysfunctional (in the sense: conflict-laden, and the conflicts don't get resolved effectively; that's all dysfunctional means). The best way to improve democracy is for each to improve the way they communicate. 2 necessary skills, that everybody can improve, are: - empathic listening (always using the most generous interpretation of the other person's argument, and then walking back from there to your own opinion, to find common ground) - problem-solving (look at the big picture, find the problem, and think of a good solution) > And in the mean time, when someone tries to blame me for this mess I didn't cause and argued against, I'm going to push back. There's nothing to push back against. This is just political conflict, and it's resolved the same way as any other conflict. If someone calls you crazy, and you reply: "well clearly I'm not crazy!" you may feel right but it's not effective communication.
        grzm 10y ago
        I understand and personally feel the same frustration. A few resources that have helped/are helping me: - Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion - Rapoport's Rules: https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapo... - The Principle of Charity: http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html
    - crispinb 10y ago
      Why can't something as complex as a historical change have multiple causes? And when the rise of social/economic inequality is such a clearly-evidenced part of the mix, why should those who have reaped unsustainable benefits from an unfair system not share part of the responsibility? I'm not exculpating the ethno-nationalist forces (leaders or followers). They are dangerous and wrong (and their more moderate fellow travellers have allowed, for ignoble motives, nasty stuff to fester now for decades). But when you have a rising class allocating ever rising shares of the world's wealth to itself, resentments will build. The Gates & Thiels of this world are fairly invulnerable and can buy themselves more fiercely guarded and gilded palaces to hide in (ever higher as the oceans rise). But for the rest, you would think even self-interest (let alone ethics) would have encouraged them to use their wealth and power to argue for a fairer polity. They didn't, and it's too late now: here comes the backlash with dizzying speed. It looks to me like we're beyond reason and are headed for widening violence and wars. I hope I'm wrong.
concinds 10y ago
More people should listen to this. Davos said one of the biggest problems in 2017 will be political/ideological instability in democracies. The question is: how do you stabilize? I just can't understand the short-term thinking of many here. The political system is volatile. You have growing radical fringes on both sides of the spectrum, increasingly more organized, more hysterical, and less factual. Blaming "the other side" achieves what? Put your egos aside and look at the big picture. How do you avoid total dislocation of the country? This was all predictable. All this is, is an escalation of political conflict between the left and right. How do you resolve conflict? Not by yelling at the other side, or telling them "they're responsible for their votes". You resolve conflict through competent communication. Most people don't want to do that, since it's easier to attack.
- egopulsus 10y ago
  Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I would say this was predictable if you followed politics closely for the past two years especially as the primaries got underway. It was also predictable if you actually took the time to investigate Donald Trump past the negative media sound bites and listened to what he intended to do when elected. I feel that in the very liberal city I am in, people are so blocked by their emotions and righteousness that competent communication isn't even an option. I have witnessed people freaking out big time. One person on facebook I am worried about. It's affecting their mental and physical health and it makes me wonder if instant access to information, social media, the internet, and 24 hour news cycles are all contributing to the downfall of civilization?

mikeash 10y ago

I'm rather sick of being blamed for Trump's election. How about the people who voted for the candidate from the party of personal responsibility take the responsibility for choosing who they voted for?

crispinb 10y ago
Of course they're responsible too. But mass-scale movements come from somewhere. They have systematic causes. The tech industry, and the ideology driving it, is manifestly amongst those causes.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Then we have a cause too, so why point the finger at us? Something else caused it! Or, I have a better idea: point the finger at the people who cast the votes.
  - concinds 10y ago
    That again ignores that these people are operating inside a system, not in a vacuum. If you want to assign blame, fine, but don't confuse that with problem-solving. The blame game will not make American democracy functional again, it'll make it even worse.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      When you point at techies as the cause, are you problem-solving, or playing the blame game? Sure looks like the latter to me. Edit: I get it. This doesn't help. The thing is, I don't know how to fix it. It looks like we're just fucked. I'm thinking and trying to come up with a fix but it's not working yet. And in the mean time, when someone tries to blame me for this mess I didn't cause and argued against, I'm going to push back.
      - crispinb 10y ago
        Hmm. There's enough despair around and if my sharp wording added to it in your case I apologise. We're all bleeding and I need a longer posting delay. The causes of this mess are so widely distributed, finger-pointing is pointless (except von Clownstick -- I will not use his brand name -- and his crazed apparachniks who need blame aplenty)
      - concinds 10y ago
        For the record I never blamed "techies". It's simple: political discourse is dysfunctional (in the sense: conflict-laden, and the conflicts don't get resolved effectively; that's all dysfunctional means). The best way to improve democracy is for each to improve the way they communicate. 2 necessary skills, that everybody can improve, are: - empathic listening (always using the most generous interpretation of the other person's argument, and then walking back from there to your own opinion, to find common ground) - problem-solving (look at the big picture, find the problem, and think of a good solution) > And in the mean time, when someone tries to blame me for this mess I didn't cause and argued against, I'm going to push back. There's nothing to push back against. This is just political conflict, and it's resolved the same way as any other conflict. If someone calls you crazy, and you reply: "well clearly I'm not crazy!" you may feel right but it's not effective communication.
      - grzm 10y ago
        I understand and personally feel the same frustration. A few resources that have helped/are helping me: - Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion - Rapoport's Rules: https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapo... - The Principle of Charity: http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html
  - crispinb 10y ago
    Why can't something as complex as a historical change have multiple causes? And when the rise of social/economic inequality is such a clearly-evidenced part of the mix, why should those who have reaped unsustainable benefits from an unfair system not share part of the responsibility? I'm not exculpating the ethno-nationalist forces (leaders or followers). They are dangerous and wrong (and their more moderate fellow travellers have allowed, for ignoble motives, nasty stuff to fester now for decades). But when you have a rising class allocating ever rising shares of the world's wealth to itself, resentments will build. The Gates & Thiels of this world are fairly invulnerable and can buy themselves more fiercely guarded and gilded palaces to hide in (ever higher as the oceans rise). But for the rest, you would think even self-interest (let alone ethics) would have encouraged them to use their wealth and power to argue for a fairer polity. They didn't, and it's too late now: here comes the backlash with dizzying speed. It looks to me like we're beyond reason and are headed for widening violence and wars. I hope I'm wrong.

concinds 10y ago

More people should listen to this. Davos said one of the biggest problems in 2017 will be political/ideological instability in democracies. The question is: how do you stabilize? I just can't understand the short-term thinking of many here. The political system is volatile. You have growing radical fringes on both sides of the spectrum, increasingly more organized, more hysterical, and less factual. Blaming "the other side" achieves what? Put your egos aside and look at the big picture. How do you avoid total dislocation of the country? This was all predictable. All this is, is an escalation of political conflict between the left and right. How do you resolve conflict? Not by yelling at the other side, or telling them "they're responsible for their votes". You resolve conflict through competent communication. Most people don't want to do that, since it's easier to attack.

egopulsus 10y ago
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I would say this was predictable if you followed politics closely for the past two years especially as the primaries got underway. It was also predictable if you actually took the time to investigate Donald Trump past the negative media sound bites and listened to what he intended to do when elected. I feel that in the very liberal city I am in, people are so blocked by their emotions and righteousness that competent communication isn't even an option. I have witnessed people freaking out big time. One person on facebook I am worried about. It's affecting their mental and physical health and it makes me wonder if instant access to information, social media, the internet, and 24 hour news cycles are all contributing to the downfall of civilization?