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> executed with little to no foresight, warning, or serious consideration, with serious consequences I think it is easy to underestimate the ugliness and disor

> executed with little to no foresight, warning, or serious consideration, with serious consequences I think it is easy to underestimate the ugliness and disorder such a reckless executive order can unleash unless you start to think about the details or put yourself in the shoes of the people affected. NBC News reports[0]: The Trump administration also has yet to issue guidance to airports and airlines on how to implement the executive order. "Nobody has any idea what is going on," a senior Homeland Security official told NBC News. As James Gleick put it on Twitter[1]: And how was it communicated to Customs and Border Protection? Or have they just gone rogue? And then there is the gross conflict-of-interest reflected in this map: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ban-conflict-of-interest/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ba... The event marks a horrible landmark. It's the first time I can point to the tangible harmful impact of Trump's executive policy on actual people. Up to this point, it has been possible for supporters and apologists to waive away his vague or careless remarks during the campaign as political rhetoric, jokes, or leverage for future negotiation. Now we start to see the mean (in every sense of the word) instinct that informed them and the harm they can do. [0] http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-travel-restrictions-leave-refugees-stranded-reports-n713591 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-travel-restrictions-... [1] https://twitter.com/JamesGleick/status/825380079526146048 https://twitter.com/JamesGleick/status/825380079526146048

kzrdude 10y ago
Eh conflicts of interests. The US has long been “allied” with exactly Turkey (NATO), Egypt and Saudi specifically.
- WildUtah 10y ago
  "Allied" in the sense that the Saudi crime family can sponsor 9-11 and their catspaw the Bush administration can exploit the occasion to supplicate even more to them. And the opposition and the media are so deep in Saud pockets, they can't even call Bush out for it.
  - kzrdude 10y ago
    And in the sense that when KSA fighters sortie to bomb Yemen, US forces are right there to refuel them. That's a military cooperation. See https://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2016/08/08/us-air-force-refueling-missions-over-yemen-grow-60-percent/88400838/ https://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2016/08/08/us-a...
berberous 10y ago
I'm against this order and generally agree with you, but the conflict-of-interest article is BS. The list of countries is the same as was targeted under Obama for extra screening: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/visa-waiver-libya-somalia-yemen_us_56c5fc45e4b0c3c550540558 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/visa-waiver-libya-somali...
- nl 10y ago
  This needs more emphasis. These countries were already hard for US citizens to do business in (hence no Trump holidings). I don't think Trump cares much about money - he is interested in Power. "Corruption" is a distraction. I also think the thing about his tax returns is the same.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - bluejekyll 10y ago
    While I agree with your point, I disagree with this: > I don't think Trump cares much about money - he is interested in Power. It's hard to know what his true interests are. But based on his actions, and his lack of desire for publicly stating his net worth or tax returns, I think he is very interested in maintaining not only his worth but also his companies'. Trump is the first President in a long time that can directly be influenced by foreign governments through his business and property holdings.
    - nl 10y ago
      This is true to some extent of course. But it seems to me - based on the amount of debt his businesses carry - that it is the prestige and power that is associated with money that drives Trump. I think that his tax returns are a huge distraction. When they leak, what will change? Everyone already knows he doesn't pay much tax. His fans see that as a good thing. The only thing that could change out of it is if there is a line item "Russian bribes". But that's unlikely, especially since I tend to think his ties with Russia are philosophical, not financial.
WildUtah 10y ago
Up to this point, it has been possible for supporters and apologists to waive away his vague or careless remarks during the campaign as political rhetoric, jokes, or leverage for future negotiation. Now we start to see the mean (in every sense of the word) instinct that informed them and the harm they can do. If you poll this issue, you'll find at least 80% of Americans don't care how inconvenient our immigration policy is for those countries affected. And a very large majority wants no immigration whatsoever from any of those nations affected nor from any of their neighbors save Israel. Probably a majority of Hillary voters would approve if they could be reassured it would go no further than that.
- aomurphy 10y ago
  A majority of Americans want to allow refugees from Muslim countries, including Syria: http://www.voanews.com/a/poll-americans-divided-along-party-lines-about-arab-refugees/3374852.html http://www.voanews.com/a/poll-americans-divided-along-party-... Democrats (who voted 89% for Hillary) are strongly in support. Overall 59% of Americans believe immigrants make the country stronger: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/15/americans-views-of-immigrants-marked-by-widening-partisan-generational-divides/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/15/americans-vi...
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Since the actual facts seem so starkly in opposition to 'WildUtah's point, I'd be really interested in seeing what evidence he expected to use to support his argument --- if only to see whether I'm misunderstanding his point.
    - WildUtah 10y ago
      How that poll is taken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfkTwY6aalg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfkTwY6aalg
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Which specific poll are you referring to and what specific problem do you have with its methodology? What poll more accurately describes public opinion, or is public opinion on this subject either "unknowable" or in some other way clear?

kzrdude 10y ago

Eh conflicts of interests. The US has long been “allied” with exactly Turkey (NATO), Egypt and Saudi specifically.

WildUtah 10y ago
"Allied" in the sense that the Saudi crime family can sponsor 9-11 and their catspaw the Bush administration can exploit the occasion to supplicate even more to them. And the opposition and the media are so deep in Saud pockets, they can't even call Bush out for it.
- kzrdude 10y ago
  And in the sense that when KSA fighters sortie to bomb Yemen, US forces are right there to refuel them. That's a military cooperation. See https://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2016/08/08/us-air-force-refueling-missions-over-yemen-grow-60-percent/88400838/ https://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2016/08/08/us-a...

berberous 10y ago

I'm against this order and generally agree with you, but the conflict-of-interest article is BS. The list of countries is the same as was targeted under Obama for extra screening: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/visa-waiver-libya-somalia-yemen_us_56c5fc45e4b0c3c550540558 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/visa-waiver-libya-somali...

nl 10y ago
This needs more emphasis. These countries were already hard for US citizens to do business in (hence no Trump holidings). I don't think Trump cares much about money - he is interested in Power. "Corruption" is a distraction. I also think the thing about his tax returns is the same.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- bluejekyll 10y ago
  While I agree with your point, I disagree with this: > I don't think Trump cares much about money - he is interested in Power. It's hard to know what his true interests are. But based on his actions, and his lack of desire for publicly stating his net worth or tax returns, I think he is very interested in maintaining not only his worth but also his companies'. Trump is the first President in a long time that can directly be influenced by foreign governments through his business and property holdings.
  - nl 10y ago
    This is true to some extent of course. But it seems to me - based on the amount of debt his businesses carry - that it is the prestige and power that is associated with money that drives Trump. I think that his tax returns are a huge distraction. When they leak, what will change? Everyone already knows he doesn't pay much tax. His fans see that as a good thing. The only thing that could change out of it is if there is a line item "Russian bribes". But that's unlikely, especially since I tend to think his ties with Russia are philosophical, not financial.

WildUtah 10y ago

Up to this point, it has been possible for supporters and apologists to waive away his vague or careless remarks during the campaign as political rhetoric, jokes, or leverage for future negotiation. Now we start to see the mean (in every sense of the word) instinct that informed them and the harm they can do. If you poll this issue, you'll find at least 80% of Americans don't care how inconvenient our immigration policy is for those countries affected. And a very large majority wants no immigration whatsoever from any of those nations affected nor from any of their neighbors save Israel. Probably a majority of Hillary voters would approve if they could be reassured it would go no further than that.

aomurphy 10y ago
A majority of Americans want to allow refugees from Muslim countries, including Syria: http://www.voanews.com/a/poll-americans-divided-along-party-lines-about-arab-refugees/3374852.html http://www.voanews.com/a/poll-americans-divided-along-party-... Democrats (who voted 89% for Hillary) are strongly in support. Overall 59% of Americans believe immigrants make the country stronger: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/15/americans-views-of-immigrants-marked-by-widening-partisan-generational-divides/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/15/americans-vi...
- tptacek 10y ago
  Since the actual facts seem so starkly in opposition to 'WildUtah's point, I'd be really interested in seeing what evidence he expected to use to support his argument --- if only to see whether I'm misunderstanding his point.
  - WildUtah 10y ago
    How that poll is taken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfkTwY6aalg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfkTwY6aalg
    - tptacek 10y ago
      I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Which specific poll are you referring to and what specific problem do you have with its methodology? What poll more accurately describes public opinion, or is public opinion on this subject either "unknowable" or in some other way clear?