4 ms·

> It's not America that did this it's a minority of America. That's democracy; that is America or else there is no America. All Americans must own this problem

> It's not America that did this it's a minority of America. That's democracy; that is America or else there is no America. All Americans must own this problem, not say that it's not their fault. For one thing, it didn't come from nowhere; Trump's policies merely put in action what many in his party have advocated for years. Yet many smart people I know overlooked it and continued to vote Republican.

deadowl 10y ago
I'm not saying that Americans shouldn't own this problem, but it's notable that Trump's presidency isn't even majority representation, nevermind democracy.
- cmurf 10y ago
  Not even a plurality, let alone majority.
RivieraKid 10y ago
How is it a fault of a random guy who didn't vote for Trump?
- hackuser 10y ago
  Being a citizen involves far more than voting once every four years. And regardless of fault, it's everyone's responsibility.
aaronmu 10y ago
The quality of a democracy is defined by how well it protects minorities.
- cmurf 10y ago
  Trump voters are a minority, they should be defended also. Geek philosophy (let's pick Yoda this time) applies to Hillary and Donald voters: Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Attack the policies, not the voters, not the president. Convincing will happen with compelling arguments that demonstrate these policies are flawed.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > Trump voters are a minority, they should be defended also. This is a bit of propaganda commonly employed by the racist right (I'm not saying you are racist or a member of that group, but IMHO that's the origin of the concept). In some sense everybody is a minority and no President every has been elected by a majority (a plurality at best), so taking the word "minority" literally is not meaningful. What is meant by "minorities" is groups that are abused by larger groups due to their overwhelming lack of political power. The people who voted for Trump were never slaves, didn't suffer segregation, weren't lynched, aren't suspected of being illegal, and generally are not excluded from power or opportunity due to their race or ethnicity. Look at any group of powerful people, from Fortune 500 CEOs to members of Congress and Presidents to Silicon Valley leaders to leaders in academia, the military, actors, chefs, coders or almost any other field - look at any college campus - you don't say, 'wow, there sure aren't many white guys there'. White-skinned people make up 66% of the US population; black-skinned are ~12%, Latino ~16%. Those aren't comparable situations. That doesn't mean that Trump voters don't have legitimate concerns, but they aren't at all a "minority" in the common meaning of the word.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Implying Trump voters aren't already defended? They are not some oppressed group.
cmurf 10y ago
Trump is president due to suspicion of democracy, not because of it. A plurality did not put him in the White House, the Electoral College did. I agree that it is a trap to only blame Trump voters. Some 43% of eligible voters did not vote at all. Some Democrats didn't vote either because they thought it was a sure thing Trump would not win, or due to their own disaffection with a politically flawed candidate (without any respect to what degree this is deserved). And also the general political dialog in the country is fairly abysmal. Many things have conspired to bring us to this point. I think Democrats, liberals, progressive, moderates, are all best off focusing on policy disputes rather than personal ones.
hesdeadjim 10y ago
If only this country were actually a democracy and not a gerrymandered, federalist republic with eroded checks and balances and an antiquated presidential election system. Then we wouldn't be having this conversation because a sane and intelligent woman would be running the country. Unfortunately the best I can do as a single voter in a non-swing state is continuing to petition my representatives. Even then you face futility by having to deal with someone like our esteemed Senator Cory Gardner (R), who goes on CBS to claim that all the people calling and writing his office are "paid protesters".
- hackuser 10y ago
  > Senator Cory Gardner (R), who goes on CBS to claim that all the people calling and writing his office are "paid protesters". It seems like a GOP talking point is that they can completely ignore political opposition and democracy. It's just wishful thinking on their part. Don't stop; it's not futile; the U.S. is a democracy and Gardner, if he wants to be re-elected, will need to pay attention to his constituents.

deadowl 10y ago

I'm not saying that Americans shouldn't own this problem, but it's notable that Trump's presidency isn't even majority representation, nevermind democracy.

cmurf 10y ago
Not even a plurality, let alone majority.

RivieraKid 10y ago

How is it a fault of a random guy who didn't vote for Trump?

hackuser 10y ago
Being a citizen involves far more than voting once every four years. And regardless of fault, it's everyone's responsibility.

aaronmu 10y ago

The quality of a democracy is defined by how well it protects minorities.

cmurf 10y ago
Trump voters are a minority, they should be defended also. Geek philosophy (let's pick Yoda this time) applies to Hillary and Donald voters: Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Attack the policies, not the voters, not the president. Convincing will happen with compelling arguments that demonstrate these policies are flawed.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > Trump voters are a minority, they should be defended also. This is a bit of propaganda commonly employed by the racist right (I'm not saying you are racist or a member of that group, but IMHO that's the origin of the concept). In some sense everybody is a minority and no President every has been elected by a majority (a plurality at best), so taking the word "minority" literally is not meaningful. What is meant by "minorities" is groups that are abused by larger groups due to their overwhelming lack of political power. The people who voted for Trump were never slaves, didn't suffer segregation, weren't lynched, aren't suspected of being illegal, and generally are not excluded from power or opportunity due to their race or ethnicity. Look at any group of powerful people, from Fortune 500 CEOs to members of Congress and Presidents to Silicon Valley leaders to leaders in academia, the military, actors, chefs, coders or almost any other field - look at any college campus - you don't say, 'wow, there sure aren't many white guys there'. White-skinned people make up 66% of the US population; black-skinned are ~12%, Latino ~16%. Those aren't comparable situations. That doesn't mean that Trump voters don't have legitimate concerns, but they aren't at all a "minority" in the common meaning of the word.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Implying Trump voters aren't already defended? They are not some oppressed group.

cmurf 10y ago

Trump is president due to suspicion of democracy, not because of it. A plurality did not put him in the White House, the Electoral College did. I agree that it is a trap to only blame Trump voters. Some 43% of eligible voters did not vote at all. Some Democrats didn't vote either because they thought it was a sure thing Trump would not win, or due to their own disaffection with a politically flawed candidate (without any respect to what degree this is deserved). And also the general political dialog in the country is fairly abysmal. Many things have conspired to bring us to this point. I think Democrats, liberals, progressive, moderates, are all best off focusing on policy disputes rather than personal ones.

hesdeadjim 10y ago

If only this country were actually a democracy and not a gerrymandered, federalist republic with eroded checks and balances and an antiquated presidential election system. Then we wouldn't be having this conversation because a sane and intelligent woman would be running the country. Unfortunately the best I can do as a single voter in a non-swing state is continuing to petition my representatives. Even then you face futility by having to deal with someone like our esteemed Senator Cory Gardner (R), who goes on CBS to claim that all the people calling and writing his office are "paid protesters".

hackuser 10y ago
> Senator Cory Gardner (R), who goes on CBS to claim that all the people calling and writing his office are "paid protesters". It seems like a GOP talking point is that they can completely ignore political opposition and democracy. It's just wishful thinking on their part. Don't stop; it's not futile; the U.S. is a democracy and Gardner, if he wants to be re-elected, will need to pay attention to his constituents.