11 ms·
How this is happening, the exact trajectory of how much worse these things are (and its potential to worsen) is somewhat terrifying, especially when you conside
by intro-b 10y ago
How this is happening, the exact trajectory of how much worse these things are (and its potential to worsen) is somewhat terrifying, especially when you consider the cavalier disregard and easy ignorance that this policy represents. I know classmates and colleagues and friends who are discussing, in their groups and communities, how to best help people stranded, whether or not vacations and returns to see ill family members must be postponed or canceled, and how future plans to stay, live, and work in the U.S., or abroad, must be changed.
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While it's been easy to think about many possible negative outcomes in the proceeding days, weeks, months, another subtle aspect of this policy's ramifications is how it weakens trust and faith in the concept of stability for future American policy — the likelihood of future government actions, executed with little to no foresight, warning, or serious consideration, with serious consequences. How this effects this country's current reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down can't be understated.
- dantheman 10y agoHopefully this will lead to a change in direction from delegation to the executive, to deliberated by congress.
- _delirium 10y agoI do think that would be a good outcome, but even if Congress were interested in revising legislation to delegate less authority to the executive (and are they?), it seems like Trump wouldn't be interested in signing such legislation. Is a veto-proof supermajority interested in it? I think so far, no. It's possible we may get some useful legal precedents, though, if some of this ends up in the courts. A good number of conservative judges are already skeptical of both excessive executive delegation and federal-government overreach, and were making moves in that direction during Obama's administration. Will Trump cause some liberal judges who have traditionally had differing views to wake up to the danger of such an executive, without an equal-or-greater number of conservative judges suddenly having a change of heart in the opposite direction? And will good test cases arise, with standing, etc.? Maybe, maybe not, but it's possible.
- hackerboos 10y agoThere's already been a "tit-for-tat" response from Iran. US citizens are banned from travelling there. Not like they made it easy before but still we can expect similar responses to the proposed 20% border tax with Mexico. Edit Some people seem to think US citizens cannot visit Iran. From the horse's mouth: https://twitter.com/JZarif/status/825439380806434816 https://twitter.com/JZarif/status/825439380806434816
- WildUtah 10y agoUS citizens have been banned from Iran for almost 40 years. That's a mighty swift response to US policy in 2017.
- macintux 10y agoNot sure where you got that information, but it contradicts everything I've ever heard. Cuba's been for a long time the only country the US won't allow its citizens to visit (head, meet desk); North Korea is, so far as I know, the only country that actively prevents US citizens from visiting, although that may be a misrepresentation of the facts on the ground. Anyway, http://uncorneredmarket.com/american-travel-iran/ http://uncorneredmarket.com/american-travel-iran/ has more information.
- WildUtah 10y agoUS citizens can visit Iran—at Iranian discretion—with a state minder the same way US citizens can travel to North Korea. You can't travel freely and you can't travel without personal scrutiny ('extreme vetting') from Iranian officials.
- bajsejohannes 10y agoCitation? I know from personal experience that this is not the case for non-US citizens.
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- klenwell 10y ago> executed with little to no foresight, warning, or serious consideration, with serious consequences I think it is easy to underestimate the ugliness and disorder such a reckless executive order can unleash unless you start to think about the details or put yourself in the shoes of the people affected. NBC News reports[0]: The Trump administration also has yet to issue guidance to airports and airlines on how to implement the executive order. "Nobody has any idea what is going on," a senior Homeland Security official told NBC News. As James Gleick put it on Twitter[1]: And how was it communicated to Customs and Border Protection? Or have they just gone rogue? And then there is the gross conflict-of-interest reflected in this map: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ban-conflict-of-interest/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ba... The event marks a horrible landmark. It's the first time I can point to the tangible harmful impact of Trump's executive policy on actual people. Up to this point, it has been possible for supporters and apologists to waive away his vague or careless remarks during the campaign as political rhetoric, jokes, or leverage for future negotiation. Now we start to see the mean (in every sense of the word) instinct that informed them and the harm they can do. [0] http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-travel-restrictions-leave-refugees-stranded-reports-n713591 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-travel-restrictions-... [1] https://twitter.com/JamesGleick/status/825380079526146048 https://twitter.com/JamesGleick/status/825380079526146048
- kzrdude 10y agoEh conflicts of interests. The US has long been “allied” with exactly Turkey (NATO), Egypt and Saudi specifically.
- rgbrenner 10y agoIt may also be illegal: https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/trumps-immigration-ban-illegal https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/trumps-immigrat... The Hart-Celler Act abolished the national origins quota system that had structured American immigration policy since the 1920s, replacing it with a preference system that focused on immigrants' skills and family relationships with citizens or residents of the U.S. http://library.uwb.edu/Static/USimmigration/1965_immigration_and_nationality_act.html http://library.uwb.edu/Static/USimmigration/1965_immigration... Executive Orders are there to fill in the implementation details that congress leaves out.. they can't override laws entirely.
- finid 10y agoSo what are the Democrats doing about this. The silence from that group is deafening.
- vinayan3 10y agoChuck Schumer made a statement yesterday. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/schumer-tears-are-running-down-the-cheeks-of-the-statue-of-liberty/article/ http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/schumer-tears-are-running-... Media might not be covering their response more? But, I don't know what they could do in Congress.
- finid 10y agoWell, that site is bad. Clicked on the search button because the link does not exist, and got taken to another site
- mikeyouse 10y agoLol, blame the Democrats for not doing what? The Rs control the White House and both branches of congress.
- enraged_camel 10y agoI don't think the OP was blaming the Democrats, but rather asking the legitimate question of whether (and how) they are planning to resist. So far, their actions have been rather dismal. For instance, they've voted for most if not all of Trump's cabinet appointments.
- daxorid 10y agoTerrifying, how? This is what Trump promised, and the reason we voted for him. Half of us are quite happy to see campaign promises actually implemented. HN is acting as if this was capricious and unplanned. In fact, it's what half of us wanted.
- 58028641 10y agoLess than half
- 654869435418647 10y agoRoughly half. The point is still valid and it's important not to disregard the momentum of that segment of the country
- becarefulyo 10y agoNazism should be swiftly kicked in the ass whenever it rears itself. This is naked white supremacism. For as much bullshit as we've heard about political correctness, why not just come out and say this is straight up religious and racial discrimination?
- baddox 10y agoThe trouble is that you can't convince someone that their own beliefs or policies they support are racial or religious discrimination. People can and do support these policies, and they can and do insist that the reasons for them are genuine concern for America's safety.
- cmurf 10y agoThe easy time to do this was the election. It is much harder to deal with now. The president's Chief Strategist and Senior Counselor is a white nationalist, who used to run Breitbart.com, where there is a distinction made between white supremacists and white nationalists (I cannot explain the distinction, for I don't see one). A site all about how awful multiculturalism is, separation of races is necessary for the survival of a country, etc. Without letting down your guard or concern, my advice is to moderate it with another possibility. The U.S. has much better insulation geographically than European countries, and a history that involves worse rhetoric and divisiveness and we've survived. There might be a pro where the whole world sees what even a little bit of white nationalism does to a country, and all those European countries flirting with their own far right nationalists, and have elections coming up soon, might just have an "OH FUCK NO" moment. And that's probably better than if Europe were electing far right governments before the U.S. Europe has a history of conflagration. Maybe Europe gets cold feet and starts taking far right nationalist politics more seriously, and rejects it more concisely and clearly, at election time. It's much easier, safer, more stable, to squash this at an election.
- WildUtah 10y agoHow this effects [sic] this country's current reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down can't be understated. That's the intention. The USA is more than a convenient incubator for foreigners. It's a nation responsible for its own future. Quite a lot of Americans don't want foreigners to make plans expecting that the USA will just always be there to fulfill their whims. A little unpredictability goes a long way in changing your national reputation as an easily exploited doormat.
- aomurphy 10y agoI think that being a student here is hardly catering to their whims. She was let in by the University, works there, and studies there. It seems fair to let her continue to do that. Also, why do you think immigrants are always going to be non-American? My father has lived here for nearly 40 years, pays taxes, pays into SS, and raised my family here. Is he just fulfilling his whims?
- Ar-Curunir 10y agoYou're just being xenophobic. You do realize that all of America was built up by immigrants, right?
- ActsJuvenile 10y agoI have hired 70 people for my corporate overlords in multiple countries, and our national policies are pretty much the opposite of exploited doormat. What I am trying to say is, if you believe USA is "an easily exploited doormat" you need to step out of the echo chamber and diversify your news sources.
- tssva 10y agoI think it is a little naive to think the effect on the country's "reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down" wasn't considered by those pushing for this policy. Damaging this reputation and therefore reducing overall immigration was most likely considered a positive effect of the policy.
- Eridrus 10y agoTrump is terrible, I wish someone else had been elected, this is clearly xenophobic crap, etc. But we do this shit all the time. The US' immigration system is byzantine at best. We deport "illegals" who have lives in the US routinely whose lives are no less worthwhile; Obama did something similar to Cubans coming here right before leaving office, leaving those moving to the US with the expectation that "wet foot dry foot" policy would continue stranded at airports. We're just all more sympathetic to the MIT student. Maybe I'm just overly cavalier, but it feels no different from the arbitrariness I have experienced in the US immigration system where random officials may make decisions with no relationship to the law with no grounds for appeal. This country already makes it ridiculously hard for skilled workers to move here; the optics sure do look shitty though. I do feel truly sorry for the refugees though, they have nowhere to go back to and are truly in a world of hurt. It saddens me that every country I have called home is so callous to them.