16 ms·

Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

599 points by obi1kenobi 10y ago

intro-b 10y ago
How this is happening, the exact trajectory of how much worse these things are (and its potential to worsen) is somewhat terrifying, especially when you consider the cavalier disregard and easy ignorance that this policy represents. I know classmates and colleagues and friends who are discussing, in their groups and communities, how to best help people stranded, whether or not vacations and returns to see ill family members must be postponed or canceled, and how future plans to stay, live, and work in the U.S., or abroad, must be changed. - While it's been easy to think about many possible negative outcomes in the proceeding days, weeks, months, another subtle aspect of this policy's ramifications is how it weakens trust and faith in the concept of stability for future American policy — the likelihood of future government actions, executed with little to no foresight, warning, or serious consideration, with serious consequences. How this effects this country's current reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down can't be understated.
- dantheman 10y ago
  Hopefully this will lead to a change in direction from delegation to the executive, to deliberated by congress.
  - _delirium 10y ago
    I do think that would be a good outcome, but even if Congress were interested in revising legislation to delegate less authority to the executive (and are they?), it seems like Trump wouldn't be interested in signing such legislation. Is a veto-proof supermajority interested in it? I think so far, no. It's possible we may get some useful legal precedents, though, if some of this ends up in the courts. A good number of conservative judges are already skeptical of both excessive executive delegation and federal-government overreach, and were making moves in that direction during Obama's administration. Will Trump cause some liberal judges who have traditionally had differing views to wake up to the danger of such an executive, without an equal-or-greater number of conservative judges suddenly having a change of heart in the opposite direction? And will good test cases arise, with standing, etc.? Maybe, maybe not, but it's possible.
- hackerboos 10y ago
  There's already been a "tit-for-tat" response from Iran. US citizens are banned from travelling there. Not like they made it easy before but still we can expect similar responses to the proposed 20% border tax with Mexico. Edit Some people seem to think US citizens cannot visit Iran. From the horse's mouth: https://twitter.com/JZarif/status/825439380806434816 https://twitter.com/JZarif/status/825439380806434816
  - WildUtah 10y ago
    US citizens have been banned from Iran for almost 40 years. That's a mighty swift response to US policy in 2017.
    - macintux 10y ago
      Not sure where you got that information, but it contradicts everything I've ever heard. Cuba's been for a long time the only country the US won't allow its citizens to visit (head, meet desk); North Korea is, so far as I know, the only country that actively prevents US citizens from visiting, although that may be a misrepresentation of the facts on the ground. Anyway, http://uncorneredmarket.com/american-travel-iran/ http://uncorneredmarket.com/american-travel-iran/ has more information.
      - WildUtah 10y ago
        US citizens can visit Iran—at Iranian discretion—with a state minder the same way US citizens can travel to North Korea. You can't travel freely and you can't travel without personal scrutiny ('extreme vetting') from Iranian officials.
        bajsejohannes 10y ago
        Citation? I know from personal experience that this is not the case for non-US citizens.
        10y ago
- klenwell 10y ago
  > executed with little to no foresight, warning, or serious consideration, with serious consequences I think it is easy to underestimate the ugliness and disorder such a reckless executive order can unleash unless you start to think about the details or put yourself in the shoes of the people affected. NBC News reports[0]: The Trump administration also has yet to issue guidance to airports and airlines on how to implement the executive order. "Nobody has any idea what is going on," a senior Homeland Security official told NBC News. As James Gleick put it on Twitter[1]: And how was it communicated to Customs and Border Protection? Or have they just gone rogue? And then there is the gross conflict-of-interest reflected in this map: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ban-conflict-of-interest/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ba... The event marks a horrible landmark. It's the first time I can point to the tangible harmful impact of Trump's executive policy on actual people. Up to this point, it has been possible for supporters and apologists to waive away his vague or careless remarks during the campaign as political rhetoric, jokes, or leverage for future negotiation. Now we start to see the mean (in every sense of the word) instinct that informed them and the harm they can do. [0] http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-travel-restrictions-leave-refugees-stranded-reports-n713591 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-travel-restrictions-... [1] https://twitter.com/JamesGleick/status/825380079526146048 https://twitter.com/JamesGleick/status/825380079526146048
  - kzrdude 10y ago
    Eh conflicts of interests. The US has long been “allied” with exactly Turkey (NATO), Egypt and Saudi specifically.
    - WildUtah 10y ago
      "Allied" in the sense that the Saudi crime family can sponsor 9-11 and their catspaw the Bush administration can exploit the occasion to supplicate even more to them. And the opposition and the media are so deep in Saud pockets, they can't even call Bush out for it.
      - kzrdude 10y ago
- rgbrenner 10y ago
  It may also be illegal: https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/trumps-immigration-ban-illegal https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/trumps-immigrat... The Hart-Celler Act abolished the national origins quota system that had structured American immigration policy since the 1920s, replacing it with a preference system that focused on immigrants' skills and family relationships with citizens or residents of the U.S. http://library.uwb.edu/Static/USimmigration/1965_immigration_and_nationality_act.html http://library.uwb.edu/Static/USimmigration/1965_immigration... Executive Orders are there to fill in the implementation details that congress leaves out.. they can't override laws entirely.
  - finid 10y ago
    So what are the Democrats doing about this. The silence from that group is deafening.
    - vinayan3 10y ago
      Chuck Schumer made a statement yesterday. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/schumer-tears-are-running-down-the-cheeks-of-the-statue-of-liberty/article/ http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/schumer-tears-are-running-... Media might not be covering their response more? But, I don't know what they could do in Congress.
      - finid 10y ago
        Well, that site is bad. Clicked on the search button because the link does not exist, and got taken to another site
    - mikeyouse 10y ago
      Lol, blame the Democrats for not doing what? The Rs control the White House and both branches of congress.
      - enraged_camel 10y ago
        I don't think the OP was blaming the Democrats, but rather asking the legitimate question of whether (and how) they are planning to resist. So far, their actions have been rather dismal. For instance, they've voted for most if not all of Trump's cabinet appointments.
- daxorid 10y ago
  Terrifying, how? This is what Trump promised, and the reason we voted for him. Half of us are quite happy to see campaign promises actually implemented. HN is acting as if this was capricious and unplanned. In fact, it's what half of us wanted.
  - 58028641 10y ago
    Less than half
    - 654869435418647 10y ago
      Roughly half. The point is still valid and it's important not to disregard the momentum of that segment of the country
      - becarefulyo 10y ago
        Nazism should be swiftly kicked in the ass whenever it rears itself. This is naked white supremacism. For as much bullshit as we've heard about political correctness, why not just come out and say this is straight up religious and racial discrimination?
        baddox 10y ago
        The trouble is that you can't convince someone that their own beliefs or policies they support are racial or religious discrimination. People can and do support these policies, and they can and do insist that the reasons for them are genuine concern for America's safety.
        cmurf 10y ago
        The easy time to do this was the election. It is much harder to deal with now. The president's Chief Strategist and Senior Counselor is a white nationalist, who used to run Breitbart.com, where there is a distinction made between white supremacists and white nationalists (I cannot explain the distinction, for I don't see one). A site all about how awful multiculturalism is, separation of races is necessary for the survival of a country, etc. Without letting down your guard or concern, my advice is to moderate it with another possibility. The U.S. has much better insulation geographically than European countries, and a history that involves worse rhetoric and divisiveness and we've survived. There might be a pro where the whole world sees what even a little bit of white nationalism does to a country, and all those European countries flirting with their own far right nationalists, and have elections coming up soon, might just have an "OH FUCK NO" moment. And that's probably better than if Europe were electing far right governments before the U.S. Europe has a history of conflagration. Maybe Europe gets cold feet and starts taking far right nationalist politics more seriously, and rejects it more concisely and clearly, at election time. It's much easier, safer, more stable, to squash this at an election.
- WildUtah 10y ago
  How this effects [sic] this country's current reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down can't be understated. That's the intention. The USA is more than a convenient incubator for foreigners. It's a nation responsible for its own future. Quite a lot of Americans don't want foreigners to make plans expecting that the USA will just always be there to fulfill their whims. A little unpredictability goes a long way in changing your national reputation as an easily exploited doormat.
  - aomurphy 10y ago
    I think that being a student here is hardly catering to their whims. She was let in by the University, works there, and studies there. It seems fair to let her continue to do that. Also, why do you think immigrants are always going to be non-American? My father has lived here for nearly 40 years, pays taxes, pays into SS, and raised my family here. Is he just fulfilling his whims?
  - Ar-Curunir 10y ago
    You're just being xenophobic. You do realize that all of America was built up by immigrants, right?
  - ActsJuvenile 10y ago
    I have hired 70 people for my corporate overlords in multiple countries, and our national policies are pretty much the opposite of exploited doormat. What I am trying to say is, if you believe USA is "an easily exploited doormat" you need to step out of the echo chamber and diversify your news sources.
- tssva 10y ago
  I think it is a little naive to think the effect on the country's "reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down" wasn't considered by those pushing for this policy. Damaging this reputation and therefore reducing overall immigration was most likely considered a positive effect of the policy.
- Eridrus 10y ago
  Trump is terrible, I wish someone else had been elected, this is clearly xenophobic crap, etc. But we do this shit all the time. The US' immigration system is byzantine at best. We deport "illegals" who have lives in the US routinely whose lives are no less worthwhile; Obama did something similar to Cubans coming here right before leaving office, leaving those moving to the US with the expectation that "wet foot dry foot" policy would continue stranded at airports. We're just all more sympathetic to the MIT student. Maybe I'm just overly cavalier, but it feels no different from the arbitrariness I have experienced in the US immigration system where random officials may make decisions with no relationship to the law with no grounds for appeal. This country already makes it ridiculously hard for skilled workers to move here; the optics sure do look shitty though. I do feel truly sorry for the refugees though, they have nowhere to go back to and are truly in a world of hurt. It saddens me that every country I have called home is so callous to them.
Thriptic 10y ago
Researchers in our lab at MIT are also under pressure. One cannot return home for fear of losing his visa and the other is potentially stuck abroad.
jasonjei 10y ago
What's scary is the new immigration ban affects legal, permanent residents. US legal, permanent residents that have firmly rooted their lives in the US, only to be told they can't come home.
- freewill_ 10y ago
  To me that's not an immigration ban then, it's a race ban.
- tehlike 10y ago
  This. I am from Turkey, and i will be nervous every passing day from yesterday on, watching news to see if Turkey is added to the list. I am still years away from naturalization, and it saddens me to think about relocating, after having left where i was born for a better and productive life. Nobody chooses their birthplace, but these are the people that decided to make a change, and in a way that historically benefited the us.
  - joatmon-snoo 10y ago
    You're safe. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ban-conflict-of-interest/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ba... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Towers_Istanbul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Towers_Istanbul
    - DavidSJ 10y ago
      He's safe now. Who knows about next week?
      - selectodude 10y ago
        You think Donald will sell his stake in projects in Turkey?
        geofft 10y ago
obi1kenobi 10y ago
Please also remember to sign the petition, in addition to discussing it in the comments! 100k signatures is a lot, but not for HackerNews ;)
- Buge 10y ago
  Is the site broken or delayed or something? There was 1 signature, I signed it (and verified my email) and it still says there is 1 signature.
  - Thorondor 10y ago
    I signed, too, but I didn't see an update in the signature count either. According to https://www.buzzfeed.com/blakemontgomery/signatures-on-the-white-house-nea-petition-site https://www.buzzfeed.com/blakemontgomery/signatures-on-the-w... We the People is experiencing technical difficulties at present; the Trump administration said it was "a question of high volume."
  - alando46 10y ago
    ^same
  - obi1kenobi 10y ago
    The petition just got created under an hour ago, and the signature counter probably doesn't update in real time.
    - varikin 10y ago
      It is still at 1 signature.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- freddyc 10y ago
  And share with others. This is only one poor guy, but there's plenty more like him out there who have done everything right and jumped through the USCIS hoops to get here legally with the goal of improving their (and potentially their family's) life. This is beyond wrong and now is not the time to sit on our hands. EDIT: Link looks like it is currently broken for me too.
kome 10y ago
America, what you have done? Good luck with this petition! Let's fight for an open world.
- hesdeadjim 10y ago
  It's not America that did this it's a minority of America. The rest of us feel like prisoners in our own country when faced with this kind of complete and utter insanity.
  - tpaksoy 10y ago
    How is it a minority when 48% of voters elected him a few months ago?
    - DanBC 10y ago
      How many people voted?
    - freddyc 10y ago
      That is quite literally the definition of a minority :) Seriously though, I take your point and this is a reminder that if we ignore vocal minorities spouting hate, eventually they may grow big enough to take control. If you see this type of behavior in your own backyard then please vote even if you don't think it will matter.
      - finid 10y ago
        "vocal minorities spouting hate" tend to win, as they are more than willing to do anything to get their way. Remember Hitler and his gangs? I won't be surprised if a new executive order orders muslims to a camp nearest to them. God help America!
    - selectodude 10y ago
      63 million people voted for Donald Trump. That's 20 percent of Americans.
    - 10y ago
tyfon 10y ago
A friendly reminder from over the pond (that is Europe). https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392 https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392 You need to speak up now, or one does not know where this will end.
- e1g 10y ago
  > "First they came for the Socialists..." Yep, and we are already all the way up to "arresting 6 journalists covering public protests against the unpopular ruler"
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - roastbeef 10y ago
    how do you know those "journalists" weren't committing a crime? were you there standing beside them? they were arrested for felony rioting, thank Obama for that rule
  - trendia 10y ago
    My understanding of that event is that protestors were starting fires and the police arrested 230 people near the incident. Of those 6 were journalists. I think that's somewhat different than police targeting journalists for their viewpoints, of which I don't see evidence.
    - e1g 10y ago
      You're right we are early into that event. It's still not clear how the arrest played out: (a) they were grabbed along with "rioters" and later turned out to be journalists on the side or (b) they were with media badges and video cameras clearly covering the riots on the ground, then still arrested as a sign of force. Sadly journalists get arrested relatively often, but it's important to insist that medics should be aimed at as rarely as possible, despite the heat of the moment.
ryderm 10y ago
Anybody else seeing that the site is broken? It says 1 vote still, even after signing and confirming my email.
- catawbasam 10y ago
  Same here.
  - bawana 10y ago
    alternate facts strike again. in the old days we called this 'government propaganda'. Let people have 'free speech' but publish the party line in the news.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- obi1kenobi 10y ago
  The petition just got created under an hour ago, and the signature counter probably doesn't update in real time.
akerro 10y ago
A lot of international students in UK think the same about Brexit, once pound hits 1:1 with Euro there will be less reasons to stay in the UK for them. What means less people will pay their student loans from government, and UK will lose access to European bailiffs...
- blibble 10y ago
  given that EU students will no longer be offered UK student loans or tuition subsidised by UK taxpayers after brexit, this becomes less of an issue as each year passes... it's not exactly easy to collect from former students defaulting on their loan repayment agreements at the moment either (if they're not in the UK) (your argument about GBPEUR also makes no sense, if the euro increased in value that would make the UK cheaper for people holding euros...)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Svip 10y ago
Does the White House Petition website still work? I mean, I am surprised it is still up. Surely the new administration would A) not pay attention to it and B) simply scrap it to avoid maintaining it. As far as I understand, there is no legal requirement for the White House to even entertain the petitions.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_People_(petitioning_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_People_(petitioning_sys...
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  It's a cheap way to let political enemies identify themselves, though.
- noobermin 10y ago
  It was an effort (at times, half hearted), at transparency by Obama, it has no legal weight, no. Do we have hope it will even be considered by Trump considering how they aren't even taking calls? No.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  Yea I think continuing to use the wh petition site is futile at best and dangerous at worst, for reasons sibs point out. Would strongly disrecommed anyone from continuing to create, share or sign them.
pedalpete 10y ago
Though I see this is a whitehouse.gov site, I'm curious as to what counts as a legitimate signature. I'm not American, not a resident, and not in America, so what happens if I sign this petition? Does anybody know how they figure this out? Do a bunch of signatures from people who have no rights in the US invalidate the petition?
- maxerickson 10y ago
  The petition doesn't mean anything to begin with. The previous administration used them as a PR device. They aren't binding. Who knows if it is even intentional that it still works.
  - zardeh 10y ago
    If (and that is a potentially big if) Trump continues the Obama admin plan of responding to all petitions that have >100K signatures, it will be interesting to see what the response to 'hey you should let this young female student who was already here back in, since she poses no danger to the US'.
    - nebabyte 10y ago
      100k+ signatures = response from trump on twitter
  - somebehemoth 10y ago
    > PR device No. Citizens used it to petition the White House and it worked as designed until recently.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      What significant policy changes were initiated by a petition? How many got pretty unserious blow off responses?
      - somebehemoth 10y ago
ImTalking 10y ago
It's so easy to see the outcome of these policies. Intolerance begats intolerance begats violence. There can be no other outcome other than an increase in violence, both domestic and international. And what will Trump do when the violence increases? He will whip the masses up with frenzied speeches and double-down on the executive orders to limit immigration. But the violence will not abate but will worsen. So finally, he will institute orders to deal with the violence, not the immigration orders that are the cause, but the violence. Protests will be banned, people will be put in prison, violence will be quashed by even more violent means, and they'll need to clothe these violence-quashers and will decide that brown shirts are the appropriate colour.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  And red hats.
- kawera 10y ago
  ... and start a war.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- myowncrapulence 10y ago
  Protests will be banned, people will be put in prison, violence will be quashed by even more violent means "Our country needs more law enforcement, more community engagement, and more effective policing. Our job is not to make life more comfortable for the rioter, the looter, or the violent disrupter. Our job is to make life more comfortable for parents who want their kids to be able to walk the streets safely." - whitehouse.gov
  - egopulsus 10y ago
    what's your point? nowhere does that statement mention peaceful, legal, protesting. Rioting, looting, and acts of violence are all illegal.
hackuser 10y ago
Let's remember that most people affected have far fewer resources and opportunity than an MIT student; most people's predicaments will not be on HN's front page or a Whitehouse.gov petition.
lazyant 10y ago
Proud to be Canadian, see our PM's latest tweets https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/825438460265762816 https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/825438460265762816
- crispinb 10y ago
  Will your brave PM institute any sanctions against the US? Tweets are cheap as.
  - vacri 10y ago
    Sanctions because... ?
    - crispinb 10y ago
      Attacks on Canadian dual citizens; attacks on the international order for dealing with refugees.
- lucb1e 10y ago
  > Proud to be $nationality I can't say I'm not proud of the Netherlands, but in this context... isn't this a big source of much evil? Us versus them? Ours vs. not ours?
  - concinds 10y ago
    There is nothing wrong with healthy pride (compared to egotistical pride). We all have things to be grateful for, hopeful about, and proud of, and that has never hurt anyone. Lack of healthy pride in oneself, one's identity and one's values is a sign of low self-esteem, a great source of suffering in the world. Black and white thinking on pride leads to fuzzy thinking and bad conclusions.
    - lucb1e 10y ago
      I agree, it's just that it's difficult to tell where the line is between a healthy self esteem about one's identity and it turning into an us vs them thing. In this thread, this comment might have turned into a discussion about the latter - or so I was afraid.
kevinburke 10y ago
Foreign students nearly always pay full tuition at US universities and help keep them afloat. Making the US undesirable for immigrants is going to make it harder for US colleges and universities to offer a great education.
- akiselev 10y ago
  Not just universities either. After the 2008 recession many private schools started to aggressively court international students, charging them as much as 2-3x base tuition plus room and board. 3 out of the 7 Catholic private schools in my area depend largely on a small group of Chinese students to be able to offer affordable tuitions to low income students. For every international student they lose, they'll lose 5-10 local students because their families can't afford the unsubsidized tuition and the schools will enter into a death spiral. This will happen while at the same time the Department of Education is slowly dismantled and opponents of public education cripple and profiteer off its privatization. The far reaching and long term consequences the US will experience from this executive order are staggering.
dboreham 10y ago
Well, right now a Queen doesn't look like such a bad idea..
- skissane 10y ago
  If Donald Trump was Prime Minister of the UK instead of President of the US, do you think the Queen would stop him from doing something like this? I'm pretty sure the answer is "No".
  - vacri 10y ago
    The queen is a figurehead and doesn't get involved in politics - the point being that she doesn't fiddle with parliament's politics, and they don't cut her out of the picture. Been that way for centuries. Here in Australia, the picture is similar. The Governor General (queen's representative) is the ceremonial head of state and can dissolve government prompting new elections, but can't direct government to a certain course of action. Dissolving government is done when it's blocked, and almost always at the request of the current head of government. However, if the Queen tried to start influencing local politics, the GG would be renamed 'president' and she'd be cut out of the picture. Basically, the Queen maintains her power by not pissing off whichever rabble is currently in power in the parliaments of any of her countries.
    - DrScump 10y ago
      The GG... can dissolve government Can the Regent no longer do this in the U.K.? Basically, the Queen maintains her power But you implied just earlier that she has no power.
      - skissane 10y ago
        > But you implied just earlier that she has no power. She has the power to divide her time among several palaces, have lots of servants waiting on her night and day, have Prime Ministers and Presidents lining up to dine and chat with her, have the Royal Air Force fly her in luxury wherever she wants to go, etc, etc, etc... basically more power than you or I will likely ever have. She has all the power she needs. But in terms of her formal legal/political power – on paper she has enormous power, but she only retains that power because 99.999% of the time she does whatever the politicans tell her to do. (If she ever started refusing to obey them, they would take all that power away from her very quickly.) However, in the very rare circumstance of a constitutional crisis, she does actually have some real political power. Consider something like the 1975 situation in Australia – if something similar were to happen in the UK, she would have real power to decide what course of action to take.
marcoperaza 10y ago
[removed potentially incorrect information]
- ifdefdebug 10y ago
  ok maybe but where does a iraqi have to go for the funeral of their mother...
- _delirium 10y ago
  [deleted reply since parent was deleted]
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    Yeah, I think you're right actually. I've removed my comment so it doesn't serve as bad information for anyone.
- pimlottc 10y ago
  What is the process to obtain these waivers? How long does it take? Does anyone know the answers to these questions? There's nothing clearly posted on DHS.gov. I was able to find this, from an unnamed "senior administration official" [0]: > Green card holders in the U.S. will have to meet with a consular officer before departing the country, the official said. That's a fairly large inconvenience, especially for those not living in a city with a consular office. And it doesn't address the situation of green card holders who are currently abroad and need waivers. Presumedly they could visit a US embassy or consular office in their country, but that's going to be difficult for someone in, say, Iran. 0: http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/316670-trump-refugee-ban-bars-green-card-holders-report http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/316670-trump-ref...
jest3r1 10y ago
Wasn't Steve Jobs biological father a Syrian Immigrant or Refugee?
- finid 10y ago
  Yep, his biological father was Syrian, and his adoptive mother was Armenian.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
return0 10y ago
Trump is creating a bargaining chip for america. This is a ploy, not s long term plan. I wonder what he ll ask in return for lifting the ban
- malcolmgreaves 10y ago
  Nope. It's just appeasing his base. The man child is not sophisticated enough to have a coherent, well-manicured strategy. He sees only what's in front of his nose.
- ocschwar 10y ago
  MIT alum here. The orange clownstick better think twice if he thinks he can use our school as a bargaining chip. Not yours, Trump.
wallace_f 10y ago
I don't think it is by chance or coincidence that Trump's admin is targeting Iranians. What really is it with American government hating Iran and Iranians, when there are equal or even worse ethnocentric, human-rights-abusing, racially intolerant states in the Middle East?
- MylesHildebrand 10y ago
  Because Iran is a threat to Israel, and Jews control America. That's why.
- andrewflnr 10y ago
  Fewer that have a plausible shot at being nuclear powers.
- Animats 10y ago
  Most Iranians in the US are the ones who can't stand the regime that runs Iran.
- chrischen 10y ago
  Nuclear weapons. And that's also the only reason why Russia is even relevant as a global power.
- crispinb 10y ago
  It is always hard to forgive nations whose democratic governments you deposed. Conversely von Clownstick finds it remarkably easy to forgive nations he personally has no business with: http://www.smh.com.au/world/donald-trumps-muslim-ban-excludes-countries-in-which-he-has-business-ties-20170128-gu0ptl.html http://www.smh.com.au/world/donald-trumps-muslim-ban-exclude...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- MylesHiIdebrand 10y ago
  Because Iran is a threat to Israel, and Jews have a lot of influence in America. That's why.
jejay 10y ago
Why is there just one signiture? I'm not a US citizen so I won't sign, but what is holding back the rest of us?
crispinb 10y ago
The unfortunate fact is no-one who matters cares about this. Who matters? Not the US public: von Clownstick & co know it will be forgetten in a month or three, and by the next election (if there is another election) enough red meat can be thrown to the know-nothing base to "win" again. Who matters: other wealthy nation governments. That's it. And none of them, however loudly they profess civilised values, will risk a hair on their precious bankers' heads to protect distant low-status nonwhite humans. That's a plain fact. We all know what ought to happen: civilised nations should band together and just say no to America. An escalating series of sanctions, starting with trade, going via targeted military cooperation downgrades, and ending with cancelling all visas to US citizens. Some nations have strong leverage over America, eg. Australia threatening access to Pine Gap would make the US tremble. None of this can or will happen, and we will plunge into the abyss. WWI and II were prequels. RIP homo sapiens. You will be little missed by our once-glorious planet's other sentient beings.
- rainhacker 10y ago
  > by the next election (if there is another election) enough red meat can be thrown to the know-nothing base to "win" again. I think this is a very important point and pose a threat to democracy. I submitted a new word addition request in Merriam Webster's open dictionary and Oxford: demagogocracy - government by the demagogues
_ph_ 10y ago
It is so easy to say country X or religion Y is evil, but this shows, effectively this could mean your neighbor, friend or colleague. People, who are not political but just try live and work and be a part of the community like everyone else.
cpcat 10y ago
It's really hypocritical that you only start noticing this happening now. The same has happened under Obama. I have a friend who was denied going back to University of Chicago last year https://www.facebook.com/ridakoon/posts/10158098402210427?pnref=story https://www.facebook.com/ridakoon/posts/10158098402210427?pn...
- refurb 10y ago
  Yes, but Obama was on our side, so certain things can be overlooked for the greater good.
  - facetube 10y ago
    False equivalence. Obama did not ban a country or religion wholesale. This is a substantial and disturbing step in the reckless anti-fact, anti-science, anti-truth administration of Donald John Trump.
    - refurb 10y ago
      False equivalence. I never stated their were equivalent, but the silence pre-Trump about immigration issues was deafening.
      - facetube 10y ago
        Which immigration issues specifically? The net migration to Mexico is an outflow, and the US continues to have one of the longest and most extensive refugee/asylum vetting processes in the world. What specifically should change?
      - enraged_camel 10y ago
        If you think there was silence about immigration issues pre-Trump, you simply were not listening. But yes, the current situation is several orders of magnitude worse, if you simply measure the number of people affected. Therefore, people's will be much more vocal.
- 10y ago
slantaclaus 10y ago
Why does it say only one person signed it right now? Surely I'm not the only one…
chrisper 10y ago
This is another reason why I decided to move back to Europe after I am done studying than trying to work on H1B. I just really do not need the stress of having to worry if I'll be kicked out overnight or not. I would probably be fine, as I am not a Muslim, but still. No thanks. Trump could make "America great again" any minute and just decide to kick out any non-American.
- WildUtah 10y ago
  Excellent. America shouldn't take any immigrants that just want to exploit our resources or wealth. Only those who believe in America and love the people and our land so much they would take all the risks of coming because no alternative is good enough should immigrate here. I wish you the best of good fortune in everything back home.
  - jmorphy88 10y ago
    Correct. America is not a giant shopping mall for the world, it's a country. "Love it or leave it" is an entirely appropriate and necessary statement.
calimac 10y ago
Look at Europe!!! http://refcrime.info/ http://refcrime.info/ For logical people most of you are brainwashed with stupid. By the way, how's SF Homeless crime going ?
LyalinDotCom 10y ago
we need to setup ways for any students stuck outside the country with this madness to still be able to continue their studios for the 3-month period (or however long it takes) using digital tools like Skype calling into classes and other things that can be setup. We cant give up on those who love to learn and want better lives for themselves and their families. This is just such depressing madness.
wslh 10y ago
The MIT should offer a remote study plan to these students.
codybrown 10y ago
I wonder what YC Part Time Partner Peter Thiel thinks of this...
- grzm 10y ago
  Why? Because this submission is on HN and HN is associated with YC? Need we drag Thiel into every political discussion? Yes, everything is ultimately related, but can we try to focus on one thing at time? It's hard enough to discuss politics constructively on HN without making it harder by reaching out for every possible tangent.
- oculusthrift 10y ago
  why would he care? hes a libertarian. he doesn't care unless it directly affects his pocketbook and even then he can just go to new zealand.
moinnadeem 10y ago
Undergrad at MIT here, thanks for signing! Our community has been fairly troubled by this to say the least, and your outpour of support is incredibly helpful.
- tropo 10y ago
  This is an easy position for you to take, since you have already gained admission to MIT and you know these people. Consider a US citizen who would like to get admitted to MIT. Trump's action will what, double the chances of getting in? Consider the parents of that kid, already paying taxes that provide for the research grants that MIT lives off of.
  - mildbow 10y ago
    You need to be better at math if you want to go to MIT.
    - ocschwar 10y ago
      And if your gambit for getting in is this kind of cynical move, MIT will spit you right back out in short order.
  - tomjakubowski 10y ago
    Double their chances? I seriously doubt that many MIT students are from Trump's list of countries, or that the "chilling effect" on other foreign applicants will be that great. This policy is still an injustice, of course. And maybe I'm wrong about the chilling effect; we'll find out, unless the courts step in and thoroughly block or cripple this short-sighted executive order.
  - Cacti 10y ago
    MIT undergrad is only 10% international students...
suprgeek 10y ago
This is the time to make as much noise as you can - protest, call your congress person, etc. This is the time to follow the "no quarter given" tactics of the NRA - they get their members to show up at any legislation anywhere that even smells of Gun control and raise a massive ruckus - similarly the time to protest is NOW before Trump rolls out the really evil stuff.
epsilonsixteen 10y ago
Good, we can never be sure whether this student's plan was to be educated here and then return to her home country where hostile parties would employ her to our disadvantage.
finid 10y ago
When I was in grad school, most of the grad students in virtually all the science and engineering depts were foreign students. And what most people don't realize is that without grad students, most research will be severely impacted. So if this continues at the rate it's going, we begin to lose foreign grad students to other countries. I hope this ends well, but I have my doubts.
- closeparen 10y ago
  >And what most people don't realize Of course they realize it. White nationalism is building its own epistemology - we already have alternative facts, and soon we will have "American science" [0]. Eviscerating the liberal/globalist scientific/academic community isn't some sad unintended side effect, it's the core of what an electoral majority of this country believes with all its heart we should be doing with gusto. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik
crb002 10y ago
While I understand Trump's motive to micromanage Saudi, Yemen, and Syria due to ongoing military conflict ... Iran makes no sense. Reminds me of a South Park Episode, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Yikes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Yikes!
- lottin 10y ago
  Not including Saudi Arabia makes even less sense.
akhilcacharya 10y ago
Absolutely sickening. No other words to put it.
robg 10y ago
Just so we're clear, 412 people have voted this up in 2 hours, with another 226 comments, but not one has signed the petition? EDIT: I just signed the petition, and with email verification, and it's not showing up. Anyone else having that problem?
- ocschwar 10y ago
  I am nto signing because I have absolutely no confidence that the petition will do anything about this. We're in for a 4 year marathon of trying to save our country from Trump, and the first thing to do is to estimate what has more of an effect. Comments and upvotes here are more likely to do some good than signing that petition.
coldtea 10y ago
I'm all against this immigration ban, but where were the tears and protests when the previous administrations targeted the same places killing thousands?
nopit 10y ago
242 comments and 1 signature
Keyframe 10y ago
What are the mechanics of this ban? I see student was denied from connecting flight. What happens if said student travels to, I don't know, Germany first. Spends there a day or two and hops on a flight to US of A? I ask because I understand ban is for admission of refugees and travellers from seven countries. Not nationalities.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
egopulsus 10y ago
Why are dissenting comments on HN displayed with light grey font color? In fact it seems rather odd that comments which seemingly go against the overwhelmingly uniform consensus on this site are highlighted at all.
obi1kenobi 10y ago
"The federal court for the Eastern District of New York issued an emergency stay halting President Donald Trump’s executive order banning entry to the US from seven majority-Muslim countries tonight, following widespread protests at airports around the country." http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/28/14427086/federal-court-halts-trumps-immigration-ban http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/28/14427086/federal-court-hal...
timpeq 10y ago
507 points, 1 signature. What's wrong with this picture?
hallman76 10y ago
WOW. @daxorid shared his view - which wasn't inflammatory. The comment was downvoted, then flagged before I could reply. Terrifying, how? This is what Trump promised, and the reason we voted for him. Half of us are quite happy to see campaign promises actually implemented. HN is acting as if this was capricious and unplanned. In fact, it's what half of us wanted. @daxorid voted for a political party that you disagree with. If they can't share their views openly and honestly we won't learn from their perspective. Based on a tiny sample of GOP friends, they agree with @daxorid. Those friends voted for Trump based on campaign promises and they're happy that he's following-through those promises. For me this was a sort of "oh shit" moment. What else did he promise?? WP has a list: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-promise-tracker/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-promi... Half of the country is excited by that list. The other half is not.
- tzs 10y ago
  Based on the discussion on /r/republican and /r/conservative, there appear to be very few in the GOP who thought that this was what Trump promised or are happy with it. Many wanted more curbs on illegal immigrants, and more vetting of new applicants for legal immigration from certain countries...but not many thought that people who are already here legally on temporary or permanent visas should be blocked from reentering if they leave temporarily, such to visit family over a holiday.
Kinnard 10y ago
I don't think we can trust a petition site hosted by the whitehouse . . . at all.
frankzinger 10y ago
I'd like to point out that the article is a Whitehouse petition and that only a single person has signed it thus far, but it was posted 8 hours ago!
tehlike 10y ago
There is hope for greencard holders: https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN15C0KX https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/id...
banku_brougham 10y ago
So there are 300+ comments but is anyone going to sign the petition?
slantaclaus 10y ago
Seriously the fact that it still only says 1/100,000 signatures on Sunday morning is a conspiracy in my book. I've got a feeling petitions to the White House will have to be done somewhere other than whitehouse.gov during this presidency.
gerbilly 10y ago
From what I hear, Iranian schools and universities are excellent.[1] I work at a company where we have several Iranian researchers working as interns, and they are doing excellent work. If the US doesn't want Iranian engineers and scientists, then I'm sure Canada will be glad to have them. [1] When I was in high school Iranian students of 9th grade age who immigrated to Canada would immediately be placed in our 12th grade math classes-and they would still get top marks.

599 points by obi1kenobi 10y ago

How this is happening, the exact trajectory of how much worse these things are (and its potential to worsen) is somewhat terrifying, especially when you consider the cavalier disregard and easy ignorance that this policy represents. I know classmates and colleagues and friends who are discussing, in their groups and communities, how to best help people stranded, whether or not vacations and returns to see ill family members must be postponed or canceled, and how future plans to stay, live, and work in the U.S., or abroad, must be changed. - While it's been easy to think about many possible negative outcomes in the proceeding days, weeks, months, another subtle aspect of this policy's ramifications is how it weakens trust and faith in the concept of stability for future American policy — the likelihood of future government actions, executed with little to no foresight, warning, or serious consideration, with serious consequences. How this effects this country's current reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down can't be understated.

dantheman 10y ago
Hopefully this will lead to a change in direction from delegation to the executive, to deliberated by congress.
- _delirium 10y ago
  I do think that would be a good outcome, but even if Congress were interested in revising legislation to delegate less authority to the executive (and are they?), it seems like Trump wouldn't be interested in signing such legislation. Is a veto-proof supermajority interested in it? I think so far, no. It's possible we may get some useful legal precedents, though, if some of this ends up in the courts. A good number of conservative judges are already skeptical of both excessive executive delegation and federal-government overreach, and were making moves in that direction during Obama's administration. Will Trump cause some liberal judges who have traditionally had differing views to wake up to the danger of such an executive, without an equal-or-greater number of conservative judges suddenly having a change of heart in the opposite direction? And will good test cases arise, with standing, etc.? Maybe, maybe not, but it's possible.
hackerboos 10y ago
There's already been a "tit-for-tat" response from Iran. US citizens are banned from travelling there. Not like they made it easy before but still we can expect similar responses to the proposed 20% border tax with Mexico. Edit Some people seem to think US citizens cannot visit Iran. From the horse's mouth: https://twitter.com/JZarif/status/825439380806434816 https://twitter.com/JZarif/status/825439380806434816
- WildUtah 10y ago
  US citizens have been banned from Iran for almost 40 years. That's a mighty swift response to US policy in 2017.
  - macintux 10y ago
    Not sure where you got that information, but it contradicts everything I've ever heard. Cuba's been for a long time the only country the US won't allow its citizens to visit (head, meet desk); North Korea is, so far as I know, the only country that actively prevents US citizens from visiting, although that may be a misrepresentation of the facts on the ground. Anyway, http://uncorneredmarket.com/american-travel-iran/ http://uncorneredmarket.com/american-travel-iran/ has more information.
    - WildUtah 10y ago
      US citizens can visit Iran—at Iranian discretion—with a state minder the same way US citizens can travel to North Korea. You can't travel freely and you can't travel without personal scrutiny ('extreme vetting') from Iranian officials.
      - bajsejohannes 10y ago
        Citation? I know from personal experience that this is not the case for non-US citizens.
        10y ago
klenwell 10y ago
> executed with little to no foresight, warning, or serious consideration, with serious consequences I think it is easy to underestimate the ugliness and disorder such a reckless executive order can unleash unless you start to think about the details or put yourself in the shoes of the people affected. NBC News reports[0]: The Trump administration also has yet to issue guidance to airports and airlines on how to implement the executive order. "Nobody has any idea what is going on," a senior Homeland Security official told NBC News. As James Gleick put it on Twitter[1]: And how was it communicated to Customs and Border Protection? Or have they just gone rogue? And then there is the gross conflict-of-interest reflected in this map: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ban-conflict-of-interest/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ba... The event marks a horrible landmark. It's the first time I can point to the tangible harmful impact of Trump's executive policy on actual people. Up to this point, it has been possible for supporters and apologists to waive away his vague or careless remarks during the campaign as political rhetoric, jokes, or leverage for future negotiation. Now we start to see the mean (in every sense of the word) instinct that informed them and the harm they can do. [0] http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-travel-restrictions-leave-refugees-stranded-reports-n713591 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-travel-restrictions-... [1] https://twitter.com/JamesGleick/status/825380079526146048 https://twitter.com/JamesGleick/status/825380079526146048
- kzrdude 10y ago
  Eh conflicts of interests. The US has long been “allied” with exactly Turkey (NATO), Egypt and Saudi specifically.
  - WildUtah 10y ago
    "Allied" in the sense that the Saudi crime family can sponsor 9-11 and their catspaw the Bush administration can exploit the occasion to supplicate even more to them. And the opposition and the media are so deep in Saud pockets, they can't even call Bush out for it.
    - kzrdude 10y ago
rgbrenner 10y ago
It may also be illegal: https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/trumps-immigration-ban-illegal https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/trumps-immigrat... The Hart-Celler Act abolished the national origins quota system that had structured American immigration policy since the 1920s, replacing it with a preference system that focused on immigrants' skills and family relationships with citizens or residents of the U.S. http://library.uwb.edu/Static/USimmigration/1965_immigration_and_nationality_act.html http://library.uwb.edu/Static/USimmigration/1965_immigration... Executive Orders are there to fill in the implementation details that congress leaves out.. they can't override laws entirely.
- finid 10y ago
  So what are the Democrats doing about this. The silence from that group is deafening.
  - vinayan3 10y ago
    Chuck Schumer made a statement yesterday. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/schumer-tears-are-running-down-the-cheeks-of-the-statue-of-liberty/article/ http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/schumer-tears-are-running-... Media might not be covering their response more? But, I don't know what they could do in Congress.
    - finid 10y ago
      Well, that site is bad. Clicked on the search button because the link does not exist, and got taken to another site
  - mikeyouse 10y ago
    Lol, blame the Democrats for not doing what? The Rs control the White House and both branches of congress.
    - enraged_camel 10y ago
      I don't think the OP was blaming the Democrats, but rather asking the legitimate question of whether (and how) they are planning to resist. So far, their actions have been rather dismal. For instance, they've voted for most if not all of Trump's cabinet appointments.
daxorid 10y ago
Terrifying, how? This is what Trump promised, and the reason we voted for him. Half of us are quite happy to see campaign promises actually implemented. HN is acting as if this was capricious and unplanned. In fact, it's what half of us wanted.
- 58028641 10y ago
  Less than half
  - 654869435418647 10y ago
    Roughly half. The point is still valid and it's important not to disregard the momentum of that segment of the country
    - becarefulyo 10y ago
      Nazism should be swiftly kicked in the ass whenever it rears itself. This is naked white supremacism. For as much bullshit as we've heard about political correctness, why not just come out and say this is straight up religious and racial discrimination?
      - baddox 10y ago
        The trouble is that you can't convince someone that their own beliefs or policies they support are racial or religious discrimination. People can and do support these policies, and they can and do insist that the reasons for them are genuine concern for America's safety.
      - cmurf 10y ago
        The easy time to do this was the election. It is much harder to deal with now. The president's Chief Strategist and Senior Counselor is a white nationalist, who used to run Breitbart.com, where there is a distinction made between white supremacists and white nationalists (I cannot explain the distinction, for I don't see one). A site all about how awful multiculturalism is, separation of races is necessary for the survival of a country, etc. Without letting down your guard or concern, my advice is to moderate it with another possibility. The U.S. has much better insulation geographically than European countries, and a history that involves worse rhetoric and divisiveness and we've survived. There might be a pro where the whole world sees what even a little bit of white nationalism does to a country, and all those European countries flirting with their own far right nationalists, and have elections coming up soon, might just have an "OH FUCK NO" moment. And that's probably better than if Europe were electing far right governments before the U.S. Europe has a history of conflagration. Maybe Europe gets cold feet and starts taking far right nationalist politics more seriously, and rejects it more concisely and clearly, at election time. It's much easier, safer, more stable, to squash this at an election.
WildUtah 10y ago
How this effects [sic] this country's current reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down can't be understated. That's the intention. The USA is more than a convenient incubator for foreigners. It's a nation responsible for its own future. Quite a lot of Americans don't want foreigners to make plans expecting that the USA will just always be there to fulfill their whims. A little unpredictability goes a long way in changing your national reputation as an easily exploited doormat.
- aomurphy 10y ago
  I think that being a student here is hardly catering to their whims. She was let in by the University, works there, and studies there. It seems fair to let her continue to do that. Also, why do you think immigrants are always going to be non-American? My father has lived here for nearly 40 years, pays taxes, pays into SS, and raised my family here. Is he just fulfilling his whims?
- Ar-Curunir 10y ago
  You're just being xenophobic. You do realize that all of America was built up by immigrants, right?
- ActsJuvenile 10y ago
  I have hired 70 people for my corporate overlords in multiple countries, and our national policies are pretty much the opposite of exploited doormat. What I am trying to say is, if you believe USA is "an easily exploited doormat" you need to step out of the echo chamber and diversify your news sources.
tssva 10y ago
I think it is a little naive to think the effect on the country's "reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down" wasn't considered by those pushing for this policy. Damaging this reputation and therefore reducing overall immigration was most likely considered a positive effect of the policy.
Eridrus 10y ago
Trump is terrible, I wish someone else had been elected, this is clearly xenophobic crap, etc. But we do this shit all the time. The US' immigration system is byzantine at best. We deport "illegals" who have lives in the US routinely whose lives are no less worthwhile; Obama did something similar to Cubans coming here right before leaving office, leaving those moving to the US with the expectation that "wet foot dry foot" policy would continue stranded at airports. We're just all more sympathetic to the MIT student. Maybe I'm just overly cavalier, but it feels no different from the arbitrariness I have experienced in the US immigration system where random officials may make decisions with no relationship to the law with no grounds for appeal. This country already makes it ridiculously hard for skilled workers to move here; the optics sure do look shitty though. I do feel truly sorry for the refugees though, they have nowhere to go back to and are truly in a world of hurt. It saddens me that every country I have called home is so callous to them.

Thriptic 10y ago

Researchers in our lab at MIT are also under pressure. One cannot return home for fear of losing his visa and the other is potentially stuck abroad.

jasonjei 10y ago

What's scary is the new immigration ban affects legal, permanent residents. US legal, permanent residents that have firmly rooted their lives in the US, only to be told they can't come home.

freewill_ 10y ago
To me that's not an immigration ban then, it's a race ban.
tehlike 10y ago
This. I am from Turkey, and i will be nervous every passing day from yesterday on, watching news to see if Turkey is added to the list. I am still years away from naturalization, and it saddens me to think about relocating, after having left where i was born for a better and productive life. Nobody chooses their birthplace, but these are the people that decided to make a change, and in a way that historically benefited the us.
- joatmon-snoo 10y ago
  You're safe. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ban-conflict-of-interest/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ba... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Towers_Istanbul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Towers_Istanbul
  - DavidSJ 10y ago
    He's safe now. Who knows about next week?
    - selectodude 10y ago
      You think Donald will sell his stake in projects in Turkey?
      - geofft 10y ago

obi1kenobi 10y ago

Please also remember to sign the petition, in addition to discussing it in the comments! 100k signatures is a lot, but not for HackerNews ;)

Buge 10y ago
Is the site broken or delayed or something? There was 1 signature, I signed it (and verified my email) and it still says there is 1 signature.
- Thorondor 10y ago
  I signed, too, but I didn't see an update in the signature count either. According to https://www.buzzfeed.com/blakemontgomery/signatures-on-the-white-house-nea-petition-site https://www.buzzfeed.com/blakemontgomery/signatures-on-the-w... We the People is experiencing technical difficulties at present; the Trump administration said it was "a question of high volume."
- alando46 10y ago
  ^same
- obi1kenobi 10y ago
  The petition just got created under an hour ago, and the signature counter probably doesn't update in real time.
  - varikin 10y ago
    It is still at 1 signature.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
freddyc 10y ago
And share with others. This is only one poor guy, but there's plenty more like him out there who have done everything right and jumped through the USCIS hoops to get here legally with the goal of improving their (and potentially their family's) life. This is beyond wrong and now is not the time to sit on our hands. EDIT: Link looks like it is currently broken for me too.

kome 10y ago

America, what you have done? Good luck with this petition! Let's fight for an open world.

hesdeadjim 10y ago
It's not America that did this it's a minority of America. The rest of us feel like prisoners in our own country when faced with this kind of complete and utter insanity.
- tpaksoy 10y ago
  How is it a minority when 48% of voters elected him a few months ago?
  - DanBC 10y ago
    How many people voted?
  - freddyc 10y ago
    That is quite literally the definition of a minority :) Seriously though, I take your point and this is a reminder that if we ignore vocal minorities spouting hate, eventually they may grow big enough to take control. If you see this type of behavior in your own backyard then please vote even if you don't think it will matter.
    - finid 10y ago
      "vocal minorities spouting hate" tend to win, as they are more than willing to do anything to get their way. Remember Hitler and his gangs? I won't be surprised if a new executive order orders muslims to a camp nearest to them. God help America!
  - selectodude 10y ago
    63 million people voted for Donald Trump. That's 20 percent of Americans.
  - 10y ago

tyfon 10y ago

A friendly reminder from over the pond (that is Europe). https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392 https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392 You need to speak up now, or one does not know where this will end.

e1g 10y ago
> "First they came for the Socialists..." Yep, and we are already all the way up to "arresting 6 journalists covering public protests against the unpopular ruler"
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- roastbeef 10y ago
  how do you know those "journalists" weren't committing a crime? were you there standing beside them? they were arrested for felony rioting, thank Obama for that rule
- trendia 10y ago
  My understanding of that event is that protestors were starting fires and the police arrested 230 people near the incident. Of those 6 were journalists. I think that's somewhat different than police targeting journalists for their viewpoints, of which I don't see evidence.
  - e1g 10y ago
    You're right we are early into that event. It's still not clear how the arrest played out: (a) they were grabbed along with "rioters" and later turned out to be journalists on the side or (b) they were with media badges and video cameras clearly covering the riots on the ground, then still arrested as a sign of force. Sadly journalists get arrested relatively often, but it's important to insist that medics should be aimed at as rarely as possible, despite the heat of the moment.

ryderm 10y ago

Anybody else seeing that the site is broken? It says 1 vote still, even after signing and confirming my email.

catawbasam 10y ago
Same here.
- bawana 10y ago
  alternate facts strike again. in the old days we called this 'government propaganda'. Let people have 'free speech' but publish the party line in the news.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
obi1kenobi 10y ago
The petition just got created under an hour ago, and the signature counter probably doesn't update in real time.

akerro 10y ago

A lot of international students in UK think the same about Brexit, once pound hits 1:1 with Euro there will be less reasons to stay in the UK for them. What means less people will pay their student loans from government, and UK will lose access to European bailiffs...

blibble 10y ago
given that EU students will no longer be offered UK student loans or tuition subsidised by UK taxpayers after brexit, this becomes less of an issue as each year passes... it's not exactly easy to collect from former students defaulting on their loan repayment agreements at the moment either (if they're not in the UK) (your argument about GBPEUR also makes no sense, if the euro increased in value that would make the UK cheaper for people holding euros...)

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Svip 10y ago

Does the White House Petition website still work? I mean, I am surprised it is still up. Surely the new administration would A) not pay attention to it and B) simply scrap it to avoid maintaining it. As far as I understand, there is no legal requirement for the White House to even entertain the petitions.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_People_(petitioning_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_People_(petitioning_sys...

dragonwriter 10y ago
It's a cheap way to let political enemies identify themselves, though.
noobermin 10y ago
It was an effort (at times, half hearted), at transparency by Obama, it has no legal weight, no. Do we have hope it will even be considered by Trump considering how they aren't even taking calls? No.
MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
Yea I think continuing to use the wh petition site is futile at best and dangerous at worst, for reasons sibs point out. Would strongly disrecommed anyone from continuing to create, share or sign them.

pedalpete 10y ago

Though I see this is a whitehouse.gov site, I'm curious as to what counts as a legitimate signature. I'm not American, not a resident, and not in America, so what happens if I sign this petition? Does anybody know how they figure this out? Do a bunch of signatures from people who have no rights in the US invalidate the petition?

maxerickson 10y ago
The petition doesn't mean anything to begin with. The previous administration used them as a PR device. They aren't binding. Who knows if it is even intentional that it still works.
- zardeh 10y ago
  If (and that is a potentially big if) Trump continues the Obama admin plan of responding to all petitions that have >100K signatures, it will be interesting to see what the response to 'hey you should let this young female student who was already here back in, since she poses no danger to the US'.
  - nebabyte 10y ago
    100k+ signatures = response from trump on twitter
- somebehemoth 10y ago
  > PR device No. Citizens used it to petition the White House and it worked as designed until recently.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    What significant policy changes were initiated by a petition? How many got pretty unserious blow off responses?
    - somebehemoth 10y ago

ImTalking 10y ago

It's so easy to see the outcome of these policies. Intolerance begats intolerance begats violence. There can be no other outcome other than an increase in violence, both domestic and international. And what will Trump do when the violence increases? He will whip the masses up with frenzied speeches and double-down on the executive orders to limit immigration. But the violence will not abate but will worsen. So finally, he will institute orders to deal with the violence, not the immigration orders that are the cause, but the violence. Protests will be banned, people will be put in prison, violence will be quashed by even more violent means, and they'll need to clothe these violence-quashers and will decide that brown shirts are the appropriate colour.

MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
And red hats.
kawera 10y ago
... and start a war.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
myowncrapulence 10y ago
Protests will be banned, people will be put in prison, violence will be quashed by even more violent means "Our country needs more law enforcement, more community engagement, and more effective policing. Our job is not to make life more comfortable for the rioter, the looter, or the violent disrupter. Our job is to make life more comfortable for parents who want their kids to be able to walk the streets safely." - whitehouse.gov
- egopulsus 10y ago
  what's your point? nowhere does that statement mention peaceful, legal, protesting. Rioting, looting, and acts of violence are all illegal.

hackuser 10y ago

Let's remember that most people affected have far fewer resources and opportunity than an MIT student; most people's predicaments will not be on HN's front page or a Whitehouse.gov petition.

lazyant 10y ago

Proud to be Canadian, see our PM's latest tweets https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/825438460265762816 https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/825438460265762816

crispinb 10y ago
Will your brave PM institute any sanctions against the US? Tweets are cheap as.
- vacri 10y ago
  Sanctions because... ?
  - crispinb 10y ago
    Attacks on Canadian dual citizens; attacks on the international order for dealing with refugees.
lucb1e 10y ago
> Proud to be $nationality I can't say I'm not proud of the Netherlands, but in this context... isn't this a big source of much evil? Us versus them? Ours vs. not ours?
- concinds 10y ago
  There is nothing wrong with healthy pride (compared to egotistical pride). We all have things to be grateful for, hopeful about, and proud of, and that has never hurt anyone. Lack of healthy pride in oneself, one's identity and one's values is a sign of low self-esteem, a great source of suffering in the world. Black and white thinking on pride leads to fuzzy thinking and bad conclusions.
  - lucb1e 10y ago
    I agree, it's just that it's difficult to tell where the line is between a healthy self esteem about one's identity and it turning into an us vs them thing. In this thread, this comment might have turned into a discussion about the latter - or so I was afraid.

kevinburke 10y ago

Foreign students nearly always pay full tuition at US universities and help keep them afloat. Making the US undesirable for immigrants is going to make it harder for US colleges and universities to offer a great education.

akiselev 10y ago
Not just universities either. After the 2008 recession many private schools started to aggressively court international students, charging them as much as 2-3x base tuition plus room and board. 3 out of the 7 Catholic private schools in my area depend largely on a small group of Chinese students to be able to offer affordable tuitions to low income students. For every international student they lose, they'll lose 5-10 local students because their families can't afford the unsubsidized tuition and the schools will enter into a death spiral. This will happen while at the same time the Department of Education is slowly dismantled and opponents of public education cripple and profiteer off its privatization. The far reaching and long term consequences the US will experience from this executive order are staggering.

dboreham 10y ago

Well, right now a Queen doesn't look like such a bad idea..

skissane 10y ago
If Donald Trump was Prime Minister of the UK instead of President of the US, do you think the Queen would stop him from doing something like this? I'm pretty sure the answer is "No".
- vacri 10y ago
  The queen is a figurehead and doesn't get involved in politics - the point being that she doesn't fiddle with parliament's politics, and they don't cut her out of the picture. Been that way for centuries. Here in Australia, the picture is similar. The Governor General (queen's representative) is the ceremonial head of state and can dissolve government prompting new elections, but can't direct government to a certain course of action. Dissolving government is done when it's blocked, and almost always at the request of the current head of government. However, if the Queen tried to start influencing local politics, the GG would be renamed 'president' and she'd be cut out of the picture. Basically, the Queen maintains her power by not pissing off whichever rabble is currently in power in the parliaments of any of her countries.
  - DrScump 10y ago
    The GG... can dissolve government Can the Regent no longer do this in the U.K.? Basically, the Queen maintains her power But you implied just earlier that she has no power.
    - skissane 10y ago
      > But you implied just earlier that she has no power. She has the power to divide her time among several palaces, have lots of servants waiting on her night and day, have Prime Ministers and Presidents lining up to dine and chat with her, have the Royal Air Force fly her in luxury wherever she wants to go, etc, etc, etc... basically more power than you or I will likely ever have. She has all the power she needs. But in terms of her formal legal/political power – on paper she has enormous power, but she only retains that power because 99.999% of the time she does whatever the politicans tell her to do. (If she ever started refusing to obey them, they would take all that power away from her very quickly.) However, in the very rare circumstance of a constitutional crisis, she does actually have some real political power. Consider something like the 1975 situation in Australia – if something similar were to happen in the UK, she would have real power to decide what course of action to take.

marcoperaza 10y ago

[removed potentially incorrect information]

ifdefdebug 10y ago
ok maybe but where does a iraqi have to go for the funeral of their mother...
_delirium 10y ago
[deleted reply since parent was deleted]
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  Yeah, I think you're right actually. I've removed my comment so it doesn't serve as bad information for anyone.
pimlottc 10y ago
What is the process to obtain these waivers? How long does it take? Does anyone know the answers to these questions? There's nothing clearly posted on DHS.gov. I was able to find this, from an unnamed "senior administration official" [0]: > Green card holders in the U.S. will have to meet with a consular officer before departing the country, the official said. That's a fairly large inconvenience, especially for those not living in a city with a consular office. And it doesn't address the situation of green card holders who are currently abroad and need waivers. Presumedly they could visit a US embassy or consular office in their country, but that's going to be difficult for someone in, say, Iran. 0: http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/316670-trump-refugee-ban-bars-green-card-holders-report http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/316670-trump-ref...

jest3r1 10y ago

Wasn't Steve Jobs biological father a Syrian Immigrant or Refugee?

finid 10y ago
Yep, his biological father was Syrian, and his adoptive mother was Armenian.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

return0 10y ago

Trump is creating a bargaining chip for america. This is a ploy, not s long term plan. I wonder what he ll ask in return for lifting the ban

malcolmgreaves 10y ago
Nope. It's just appeasing his base. The man child is not sophisticated enough to have a coherent, well-manicured strategy. He sees only what's in front of his nose.
ocschwar 10y ago
MIT alum here. The orange clownstick better think twice if he thinks he can use our school as a bargaining chip. Not yours, Trump.

wallace_f 10y ago

I don't think it is by chance or coincidence that Trump's admin is targeting Iranians. What really is it with American government hating Iran and Iranians, when there are equal or even worse ethnocentric, human-rights-abusing, racially intolerant states in the Middle East?

MylesHildebrand 10y ago
Because Iran is a threat to Israel, and Jews control America. That's why.
andrewflnr 10y ago
Fewer that have a plausible shot at being nuclear powers.
Animats 10y ago
Most Iranians in the US are the ones who can't stand the regime that runs Iran.
chrischen 10y ago
Nuclear weapons. And that's also the only reason why Russia is even relevant as a global power.
crispinb 10y ago
It is always hard to forgive nations whose democratic governments you deposed. Conversely von Clownstick finds it remarkably easy to forgive nations he personally has no business with: http://www.smh.com.au/world/donald-trumps-muslim-ban-excludes-countries-in-which-he-has-business-ties-20170128-gu0ptl.html http://www.smh.com.au/world/donald-trumps-muslim-ban-exclude...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
MylesHiIdebrand 10y ago
Because Iran is a threat to Israel, and Jews have a lot of influence in America. That's why.

jejay 10y ago

Why is there just one signiture? I'm not a US citizen so I won't sign, but what is holding back the rest of us?

crispinb 10y ago

The unfortunate fact is no-one who matters cares about this. Who matters? Not the US public: von Clownstick & co know it will be forgetten in a month or three, and by the next election (if there is another election) enough red meat can be thrown to the know-nothing base to "win" again. Who matters: other wealthy nation governments. That's it. And none of them, however loudly they profess civilised values, will risk a hair on their precious bankers' heads to protect distant low-status nonwhite humans. That's a plain fact. We all know what ought to happen: civilised nations should band together and just say no to America. An escalating series of sanctions, starting with trade, going via targeted military cooperation downgrades, and ending with cancelling all visas to US citizens. Some nations have strong leverage over America, eg. Australia threatening access to Pine Gap would make the US tremble. None of this can or will happen, and we will plunge into the abyss. WWI and II were prequels. RIP homo sapiens. You will be little missed by our once-glorious planet's other sentient beings.

rainhacker 10y ago
> by the next election (if there is another election) enough red meat can be thrown to the know-nothing base to "win" again. I think this is a very important point and pose a threat to democracy. I submitted a new word addition request in Merriam Webster's open dictionary and Oxford: demagogocracy - government by the demagogues

_ph_ 10y ago

It is so easy to say country X or religion Y is evil, but this shows, effectively this could mean your neighbor, friend or colleague. People, who are not political but just try live and work and be a part of the community like everyone else.

cpcat 10y ago

It's really hypocritical that you only start noticing this happening now. The same has happened under Obama. I have a friend who was denied going back to University of Chicago last year https://www.facebook.com/ridakoon/posts/10158098402210427?pnref=story https://www.facebook.com/ridakoon/posts/10158098402210427?pn...

refurb 10y ago
Yes, but Obama was on our side, so certain things can be overlooked for the greater good.
- facetube 10y ago
  False equivalence. Obama did not ban a country or religion wholesale. This is a substantial and disturbing step in the reckless anti-fact, anti-science, anti-truth administration of Donald John Trump.
  - refurb 10y ago
    False equivalence. I never stated their were equivalent, but the silence pre-Trump about immigration issues was deafening.
    - facetube 10y ago
      Which immigration issues specifically? The net migration to Mexico is an outflow, and the US continues to have one of the longest and most extensive refugee/asylum vetting processes in the world. What specifically should change?
    - enraged_camel 10y ago
      If you think there was silence about immigration issues pre-Trump, you simply were not listening. But yes, the current situation is several orders of magnitude worse, if you simply measure the number of people affected. Therefore, people's will be much more vocal.
10y ago

slantaclaus 10y ago

Why does it say only one person signed it right now? Surely I'm not the only one…

chrisper 10y ago

This is another reason why I decided to move back to Europe after I am done studying than trying to work on H1B. I just really do not need the stress of having to worry if I'll be kicked out overnight or not. I would probably be fine, as I am not a Muslim, but still. No thanks. Trump could make "America great again" any minute and just decide to kick out any non-American.

WildUtah 10y ago
Excellent. America shouldn't take any immigrants that just want to exploit our resources or wealth. Only those who believe in America and love the people and our land so much they would take all the risks of coming because no alternative is good enough should immigrate here. I wish you the best of good fortune in everything back home.
- jmorphy88 10y ago
  Correct. America is not a giant shopping mall for the world, it's a country. "Love it or leave it" is an entirely appropriate and necessary statement.

calimac 10y ago

Look at Europe!!! http://refcrime.info/ http://refcrime.info/ For logical people most of you are brainwashed with stupid. By the way, how's SF Homeless crime going ?

LyalinDotCom 10y ago

we need to setup ways for any students stuck outside the country with this madness to still be able to continue their studios for the 3-month period (or however long it takes) using digital tools like Skype calling into classes and other things that can be setup. We cant give up on those who love to learn and want better lives for themselves and their families. This is just such depressing madness.

wslh 10y ago

The MIT should offer a remote study plan to these students.

codybrown 10y ago

I wonder what YC Part Time Partner Peter Thiel thinks of this...

grzm 10y ago
Why? Because this submission is on HN and HN is associated with YC? Need we drag Thiel into every political discussion? Yes, everything is ultimately related, but can we try to focus on one thing at time? It's hard enough to discuss politics constructively on HN without making it harder by reaching out for every possible tangent.
oculusthrift 10y ago
why would he care? hes a libertarian. he doesn't care unless it directly affects his pocketbook and even then he can just go to new zealand.

moinnadeem 10y ago

Undergrad at MIT here, thanks for signing! Our community has been fairly troubled by this to say the least, and your outpour of support is incredibly helpful.

tropo 10y ago
This is an easy position for you to take, since you have already gained admission to MIT and you know these people. Consider a US citizen who would like to get admitted to MIT. Trump's action will what, double the chances of getting in? Consider the parents of that kid, already paying taxes that provide for the research grants that MIT lives off of.
- mildbow 10y ago
  You need to be better at math if you want to go to MIT.
  - ocschwar 10y ago
    And if your gambit for getting in is this kind of cynical move, MIT will spit you right back out in short order.
- tomjakubowski 10y ago
  Double their chances? I seriously doubt that many MIT students are from Trump's list of countries, or that the "chilling effect" on other foreign applicants will be that great. This policy is still an injustice, of course. And maybe I'm wrong about the chilling effect; we'll find out, unless the courts step in and thoroughly block or cripple this short-sighted executive order.
- Cacti 10y ago
  MIT undergrad is only 10% international students...

suprgeek 10y ago

This is the time to make as much noise as you can - protest, call your congress person, etc. This is the time to follow the "no quarter given" tactics of the NRA - they get their members to show up at any legislation anywhere that even smells of Gun control and raise a massive ruckus - similarly the time to protest is NOW before Trump rolls out the really evil stuff.

epsilonsixteen 10y ago

Good, we can never be sure whether this student's plan was to be educated here and then return to her home country where hostile parties would employ her to our disadvantage.

finid 10y ago

When I was in grad school, most of the grad students in virtually all the science and engineering depts were foreign students. And what most people don't realize is that without grad students, most research will be severely impacted. So if this continues at the rate it's going, we begin to lose foreign grad students to other countries. I hope this ends well, but I have my doubts.

closeparen 10y ago
>And what most people don't realize Of course they realize it. White nationalism is building its own epistemology - we already have alternative facts, and soon we will have "American science" [0]. Eviscerating the liberal/globalist scientific/academic community isn't some sad unintended side effect, it's the core of what an electoral majority of this country believes with all its heart we should be doing with gusto. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik

crb002 10y ago

While I understand Trump's motive to micromanage Saudi, Yemen, and Syria due to ongoing military conflict ... Iran makes no sense. Reminds me of a South Park Episode, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Yikes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Yikes!

lottin 10y ago
Not including Saudi Arabia makes even less sense.

akhilcacharya 10y ago

Absolutely sickening. No other words to put it.

robg 10y ago

Just so we're clear, 412 people have voted this up in 2 hours, with another 226 comments, but not one has signed the petition? EDIT: I just signed the petition, and with email verification, and it's not showing up. Anyone else having that problem?

ocschwar 10y ago
I am nto signing because I have absolutely no confidence that the petition will do anything about this. We're in for a 4 year marathon of trying to save our country from Trump, and the first thing to do is to estimate what has more of an effect. Comments and upvotes here are more likely to do some good than signing that petition.

coldtea 10y ago

I'm all against this immigration ban, but where were the tears and protests when the previous administrations targeted the same places killing thousands?

nopit 10y ago

242 comments and 1 signature

Keyframe 10y ago

What are the mechanics of this ban? I see student was denied from connecting flight. What happens if said student travels to, I don't know, Germany first. Spends there a day or two and hops on a flight to US of A? I ask because I understand ban is for admission of refugees and travellers from seven countries. Not nationalities.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

egopulsus 10y ago

Why are dissenting comments on HN displayed with light grey font color? In fact it seems rather odd that comments which seemingly go against the overwhelmingly uniform consensus on this site are highlighted at all.

obi1kenobi 10y ago

"The federal court for the Eastern District of New York issued an emergency stay halting President Donald Trump’s executive order banning entry to the US from seven majority-Muslim countries tonight, following widespread protests at airports around the country." http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/28/14427086/federal-court-halts-trumps-immigration-ban http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/28/14427086/federal-court-hal...

timpeq 10y ago

507 points, 1 signature. What's wrong with this picture?

hallman76 10y ago

WOW. @daxorid shared his view - which wasn't inflammatory. The comment was downvoted, then flagged before I could reply. Terrifying, how? This is what Trump promised, and the reason we voted for him. Half of us are quite happy to see campaign promises actually implemented. HN is acting as if this was capricious and unplanned. In fact, it's what half of us wanted. @daxorid voted for a political party that you disagree with. If they can't share their views openly and honestly we won't learn from their perspective. Based on a tiny sample of GOP friends, they agree with @daxorid. Those friends voted for Trump based on campaign promises and they're happy that he's following-through those promises. For me this was a sort of "oh shit" moment. What else did he promise?? WP has a list: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-promise-tracker/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-promi... Half of the country is excited by that list. The other half is not.

tzs 10y ago
Based on the discussion on /r/republican and /r/conservative, there appear to be very few in the GOP who thought that this was what Trump promised or are happy with it. Many wanted more curbs on illegal immigrants, and more vetting of new applicants for legal immigration from certain countries...but not many thought that people who are already here legally on temporary or permanent visas should be blocked from reentering if they leave temporarily, such to visit family over a holiday.

Kinnard 10y ago

I don't think we can trust a petition site hosted by the whitehouse . . . at all.

frankzinger 10y ago

I'd like to point out that the article is a Whitehouse petition and that only a single person has signed it thus far, but it was posted 8 hours ago!

tehlike 10y ago

There is hope for greencard holders: https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN15C0KX https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/id...

banku_brougham 10y ago

So there are 300+ comments but is anyone going to sign the petition?

slantaclaus 10y ago

Seriously the fact that it still only says 1/100,000 signatures on Sunday morning is a conspiracy in my book. I've got a feeling petitions to the White House will have to be done somewhere other than whitehouse.gov during this presidency.

gerbilly 10y ago

From what I hear, Iranian schools and universities are excellent.[1] I work at a company where we have several Iranian researchers working as interns, and they are doing excellent work. If the US doesn't want Iranian engineers and scientists, then I'm sure Canada will be glad to have them. [1] When I was in high school Iranian students of 9th grade age who immigrated to Canada would immediately be placed in our 12th grade math classes-and they would still get top marks.