4 ms·

Is Globalization to Blame?

18 points by FuNe 10y ago

crdoconnor 10y ago
"As it stands, almost nothing has been done in this era of trade liberalization to reduce the barriers protecting our most highly paid professionals." tl;dr Dean Baker wants to respond to the impoverishment of manufacturing workers by impoverishing professional service workers. "In generating savings from freer trade in the labor of doctors and lawyers and so on, we would also be promoting equality" People like him are why Trump is now in power.
- mc32 10y ago
  It would only be fair though, wouldn't it. The professionals are the ones complaining about the selfishness of the people who voted the current administration in. So, it would be a kind of fair for highly paid professionals to go through the same wage stagnation and competition from foreign labor so they may better understand why people voted for the current admin. On a different note, if it we not for globalization, yes, third world countries (which many like to say are exploited by the larger more mature economies) would be even worse off than they are today --mostly relegated to very light manufacturing and natural resources and agricultural products -had globalization not occurred. It's not exactly a zero-sum game, but it does like to approach equilibrium meaning those up will go down and those at the bottom will go up (we have the smallest proportion of global pop in extreme poverty.)
  - Clubber 10y ago
    I would say that would be just as unfair, but at double scale. I don't want to see higher wage stagnation, but less of it. The only highly paid professionals that are immune from this appears to be high level managers; high enough to control budgets / P&L.
    - mc32 10y ago
      I'd see it more as just desserts because these people are the ones who deride the working class as privileged and unwilling to share their wealth with other external groups. So, it would be the professionals' turn to walk the walk.
      - crdoconnor 10y ago
        I guess Jay Gould was right. You really can hire one half of the working classes to kill the other.
      - Clubber 10y ago
        You're painting with an awfully broad brush. That same way of thinking can be applied against just about any group to increase misery.
- nine_k 10y ago
  Outsourcing factory work is relatively simple: if you have, or can cheaply train, reasonably qualified workers at a remote location, you can build / upgrade a factory, ship raw materials in, ship the product out. This applies well to things like garments or electronics, much less well to e.g. fruit and vegetables that are perishable. Outsourcing medial work is theoretically about as simple, but for a few buts. Much of medical work, from nurses' to surgeons' to dentists', is highly local and real-time. Tele-surgerly is possible, though, and probably talking to a patient can be done entirely remotely. But this supposes that a patient and a doctor speak a common language well, which in many cases is tricky (and factory workers don't need this). Outsourcing lawyer work requires, besides a common language, a deep understanding of foreign law codes and a good understanding of foreign daily life and practices. This is, of course, attainable for a determined remote lawyer, but I don't see why it may happen to be cheaper than attaining the same level of education and experience for a local. As of cost of living, places like upstate Nebraska are quite inexpensive! Showing up in court is harder for a remote attorney, but probably tele-presence could help somehow. I suppose that importing doctors and lawyers would not help lower the costs much. Doctors in the US are expensive not (only) because clueful, experienced people are rare, but because the supply is (or was) limited.
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    >I suppose that importing doctors and lawyers would not help lower the costs much. Doctors in the US are expensive not (only) because clueful, experienced people are rare, but because the supply is (or was) limited. What exactly do you think would happen to the price if supply increased? Doctors are also expensive because of malpractice insurance. Finance gets a big cut.
    - nine_k 10y ago
      An "imported" doctor needs to get US certifications, and that's a limiting factor. With enough protections in place, the increase of supply may be seriously delayed or even not happen.
      - crdoconnor 10y ago
derriz 10y ago
I'm unconvinced by this article for a number of reasons. The significance placed on trade deficits always struck me as somewhat misguided so the author's uncritical focus on this crude metric is off putting. In aggregate, inward and outward flows have to match by definition. If an American company builds and sells a car to a foreigner this reduces the US deficit but if it builds and sells a house to a foreigner, then this has the effect of increasing it. So in the modern world, running a trade deficit just means you are selling more things like houses than cars. If running a trade deficit was impoverishing, then you'd imagine that the two lists of countries with the biggest trade deficits and surpluses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_a... ) would be dominated by the poorest and richest countries respectively. But they are not - it just depends on the economic specialities of the countries. Also I am suspicious of anyone who uses a dismissive phrase like "so called experts" as part of their argument. In my experience, this generally is a strong signal that the author has a very superficial understanding of the subject. Not that I claim any expertise in the area.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  Trade deficit isn't a good indicator for overall jobs but it's a good indicator for where all of the manufacturing jobs have gone and by extension why the labor force participation rate in the US is so low.
  - fuzzfactor 10y ago
    This seems easy to agree with. Trade imbalances quoted in US dollars reveal what merchants are dealing with, in terms of local currency. When traders start suffering, you can be sure there are some underlying workers that are relatively devastated.
fuzzfactor 10y ago
Well, it's certainly not blameless. Edit: It also seems common to misplace fault in many directions while ignoring the influence of globalization completely.

18 points by FuNe 10y ago

"As it stands, almost nothing has been done in this era of trade liberalization to reduce the barriers protecting our most highly paid professionals." tl;dr Dean Baker wants to respond to the impoverishment of manufacturing workers by impoverishing professional service workers. "In generating savings from freer trade in the labor of doctors and lawyers and so on, we would also be promoting equality" People like him are why Trump is now in power.

mc32 10y ago
It would only be fair though, wouldn't it. The professionals are the ones complaining about the selfishness of the people who voted the current administration in. So, it would be a kind of fair for highly paid professionals to go through the same wage stagnation and competition from foreign labor so they may better understand why people voted for the current admin. On a different note, if it we not for globalization, yes, third world countries (which many like to say are exploited by the larger more mature economies) would be even worse off than they are today --mostly relegated to very light manufacturing and natural resources and agricultural products -had globalization not occurred. It's not exactly a zero-sum game, but it does like to approach equilibrium meaning those up will go down and those at the bottom will go up (we have the smallest proportion of global pop in extreme poverty.)
- Clubber 10y ago
  I would say that would be just as unfair, but at double scale. I don't want to see higher wage stagnation, but less of it. The only highly paid professionals that are immune from this appears to be high level managers; high enough to control budgets / P&L.
  - mc32 10y ago
    I'd see it more as just desserts because these people are the ones who deride the working class as privileged and unwilling to share their wealth with other external groups. So, it would be the professionals' turn to walk the walk.
    - crdoconnor 10y ago
      I guess Jay Gould was right. You really can hire one half of the working classes to kill the other.
    - Clubber 10y ago
      You're painting with an awfully broad brush. That same way of thinking can be applied against just about any group to increase misery.
nine_k 10y ago
Outsourcing factory work is relatively simple: if you have, or can cheaply train, reasonably qualified workers at a remote location, you can build / upgrade a factory, ship raw materials in, ship the product out. This applies well to things like garments or electronics, much less well to e.g. fruit and vegetables that are perishable. Outsourcing medial work is theoretically about as simple, but for a few buts. Much of medical work, from nurses' to surgeons' to dentists', is highly local and real-time. Tele-surgerly is possible, though, and probably talking to a patient can be done entirely remotely. But this supposes that a patient and a doctor speak a common language well, which in many cases is tricky (and factory workers don't need this). Outsourcing lawyer work requires, besides a common language, a deep understanding of foreign law codes and a good understanding of foreign daily life and practices. This is, of course, attainable for a determined remote lawyer, but I don't see why it may happen to be cheaper than attaining the same level of education and experience for a local. As of cost of living, places like upstate Nebraska are quite inexpensive! Showing up in court is harder for a remote attorney, but probably tele-presence could help somehow. I suppose that importing doctors and lawyers would not help lower the costs much. Doctors in the US are expensive not (only) because clueful, experienced people are rare, but because the supply is (or was) limited.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  >I suppose that importing doctors and lawyers would not help lower the costs much. Doctors in the US are expensive not (only) because clueful, experienced people are rare, but because the supply is (or was) limited. What exactly do you think would happen to the price if supply increased? Doctors are also expensive because of malpractice insurance. Finance gets a big cut.
  - nine_k 10y ago
    An "imported" doctor needs to get US certifications, and that's a limiting factor. With enough protections in place, the increase of supply may be seriously delayed or even not happen.
    - crdoconnor 10y ago

derriz 10y ago

I'm unconvinced by this article for a number of reasons. The significance placed on trade deficits always struck me as somewhat misguided so the author's uncritical focus on this crude metric is off putting. In aggregate, inward and outward flows have to match by definition. If an American company builds and sells a car to a foreigner this reduces the US deficit but if it builds and sells a house to a foreigner, then this has the effect of increasing it. So in the modern world, running a trade deficit just means you are selling more things like houses than cars. If running a trade deficit was impoverishing, then you'd imagine that the two lists of countries with the biggest trade deficits and surpluses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_a... ) would be dominated by the poorest and richest countries respectively. But they are not - it just depends on the economic specialities of the countries. Also I am suspicious of anyone who uses a dismissive phrase like "so called experts" as part of their argument. In my experience, this generally is a strong signal that the author has a very superficial understanding of the subject. Not that I claim any expertise in the area.

crdoconnor 10y ago
Trade deficit isn't a good indicator for overall jobs but it's a good indicator for where all of the manufacturing jobs have gone and by extension why the labor force participation rate in the US is so low.
- fuzzfactor 10y ago
  This seems easy to agree with. Trade imbalances quoted in US dollars reveal what merchants are dealing with, in terms of local currency. When traders start suffering, you can be sure there are some underlying workers that are relatively devastated.

fuzzfactor 10y ago

Well, it's certainly not blameless. Edit: It also seems common to misplace fault in many directions while ignoring the influence of globalization completely.