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I thought historians are still debating what caused the fall of Rome? I can't really take you serious if you invoke Putin as the supposed mastermind... Intern

I thought historians are still debating what caused the fall of Rome? I can't really take you serious if you invoke Putin as the supposed mastermind... International relations: because the countries he temporarily blocked for immigration have previously been such big friends to the USA? I don't think that accurately reflects reality.

jacquesm 10y ago
> I can't really take you serious if you invoke Putin as the supposed mastermind... Between Putin and Assange there are very good reasons to damage America as much as they can get away with and it didn't take much to tip the balance. America has never been as divided in recent memory as what is happening today. To think that Putin would not be involved is naive, what with the situation in the Ukraine being what it is he desperately needs some way to get out of the stalemate and with America run by the likes of McCain and Clinton and NATO and the EU being strong and united there would be very little chance of that. Putin stands the most to gain from all this by far. > International relations: because the countries he temporarily blocked for immigration have previously been such big friends to the USA? I don't think that accurately reflects reality. You must have missed his comments on Taiwan, Mexico and a whole bunch of other countries.
- facepalm 10y ago
  If Putin can control the US from his third world backwater, maybe he deserves to be in power. What makes him so good that the world's most advanced country is powerless against him? Is it because Russians are such good hackers? Taiwan, Mexico and so on - fair enough. But overall it is not as if all the countries in the world were friends and only Trump is shaking things up now. There were always conflicts of interest, new trends that shift power (like oil and phracking), military interventions and what not.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    > If Putin can control the US from his third world backwater, maybe he deserves to be in power. Destruction and construction are asymmetric. It takes far less effort to destroy something than it does to create something and things that are delicately balanced can be toppled with only a small application of force. > What makes him so good that the world's most advanced country is powerless against him? Internal divisions, magnified to make them seem larger than they really are. > Is it because Russians are such good hackers? No, it is because when it comes to propaganda Russia has a leg (or rather several legs) up compared to the USA. The USA would do something like 'voice of America', the Russians would carpet bomb the nation with their version of the story, a history to corroborate their version and a continuous barrage of flak to get in the way of intelligent discussion. And anybody that managed to get some kind of opposition going would as a rule never be heard from again. Fortunately in America that stage has not yet been reached, let's hope it will never happen. > Taiwan, Mexico and so on - fair enough. Ok > But overall it is not as if all the countries in the world were friends and only Trump is shaking things up now. No, but they weren't all-out enemies either and Trump is pushing in that direction (not Taiwan). Even in Europe, one of the USA's staunchest allies when it comes to operations abroad there is strong talk of distancing because of the new perceived instability of America. > There were always conflicts of interest, new trends that shift power (like oil and phracking), military interventions and what not. Yes, but just like Hitler found out: you can't fight wars on all fronts at once.
    - facepalm 10y ago
      "the Russians would carpet bomb the nation with their version of the story" But how can they carpet bomb the US with fake news from Russia? "Even in Europe" Maybe Europe will have to shake off its arrogance and realize how much they have always depended on the US. I say that as an European - and here, also, people are divided over Trump, just as in the US. There are elections in Germany this year (if you meant Germany), although to be fair, no major shakeup is to be expected. But that is only for lack of an alternative, there is no Trump here to vote for. But maybe some adjustment of policies will occur before the election date, anyway. "Yes, but just like Hitler found out: you can't fight wars on all fronts at once." Still, making a tactical error is not in itself evil. And chaos is a tactic that sometimes works. It won him the election already.
- facepalm 10y ago
  Btw maybe you can explain the Taiwan thing to me? Why is it the obviously good thing to keep supporting China in their policy of claiming it?
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Well, in a nutshell: The 'One China' policy essentially is about saving face. China is extremely sensitive to not being seen as losing face because of bullying from the West about what they consider to be their sphere of influence. That in practice Taiwan acts and to all intents and purposes is an independent country doesn't matter as much as being able to claim that Taiwan is a republic of China does. So, if everybody would just pretend that the 'One China' view is the correct one while Taiwan gets away with being a relatively progressive democratic society everybody wins. If Trump starts throwing his weight around he might just trigger an invasion of Taiwan and just like Europe and the USA stood by while the Eastern part of Ukraine was annexed I do not expect anybody to lift a finger to stop it. That's why you don't put unstable bullies in charge of foreign diplomacy with your single largest trading partner and a formidable military power to boot. Vastly oversimplified but that's about the gist of it as far as I can see, corrections welcome.
    - facepalm 10y ago
      Sure, but that to me sounds like a technical argument, not a political one (that is, it is neither Republican or Democratic, for example). It is not really a moral argument. And it might not be the only possible scenario - in fact, with all the Hitler comparisons floating around, this stance towards China reminds me a lot of the appeasement politics towards Hitler. Ultimately, saving face with regard to Taiwan is probably just one part of the general trade deal with China? So as the other parts, it should probably be up for negotiation? Or even be a factor ("we pretend Taiwan belong to you, and you give us moar iPhones"). Not saying that protectionism is a good idea, but also not saying that all trade deals are always optimal for both parties. I think Ukraine was about more than saving face for Russia, too - Russia has always wanted the Krim for strategical reasons?
      - 10y ago

jacquesm 10y ago

> I can't really take you serious if you invoke Putin as the supposed mastermind... Between Putin and Assange there are very good reasons to damage America as much as they can get away with and it didn't take much to tip the balance. America has never been as divided in recent memory as what is happening today. To think that Putin would not be involved is naive, what with the situation in the Ukraine being what it is he desperately needs some way to get out of the stalemate and with America run by the likes of McCain and Clinton and NATO and the EU being strong and united there would be very little chance of that. Putin stands the most to gain from all this by far. > International relations: because the countries he temporarily blocked for immigration have previously been such big friends to the USA? I don't think that accurately reflects reality. You must have missed his comments on Taiwan, Mexico and a whole bunch of other countries.

facepalm 10y ago
If Putin can control the US from his third world backwater, maybe he deserves to be in power. What makes him so good that the world's most advanced country is powerless against him? Is it because Russians are such good hackers? Taiwan, Mexico and so on - fair enough. But overall it is not as if all the countries in the world were friends and only Trump is shaking things up now. There were always conflicts of interest, new trends that shift power (like oil and phracking), military interventions and what not.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  > If Putin can control the US from his third world backwater, maybe he deserves to be in power. Destruction and construction are asymmetric. It takes far less effort to destroy something than it does to create something and things that are delicately balanced can be toppled with only a small application of force. > What makes him so good that the world's most advanced country is powerless against him? Internal divisions, magnified to make them seem larger than they really are. > Is it because Russians are such good hackers? No, it is because when it comes to propaganda Russia has a leg (or rather several legs) up compared to the USA. The USA would do something like 'voice of America', the Russians would carpet bomb the nation with their version of the story, a history to corroborate their version and a continuous barrage of flak to get in the way of intelligent discussion. And anybody that managed to get some kind of opposition going would as a rule never be heard from again. Fortunately in America that stage has not yet been reached, let's hope it will never happen. > Taiwan, Mexico and so on - fair enough. Ok > But overall it is not as if all the countries in the world were friends and only Trump is shaking things up now. No, but they weren't all-out enemies either and Trump is pushing in that direction (not Taiwan). Even in Europe, one of the USA's staunchest allies when it comes to operations abroad there is strong talk of distancing because of the new perceived instability of America. > There were always conflicts of interest, new trends that shift power (like oil and phracking), military interventions and what not. Yes, but just like Hitler found out: you can't fight wars on all fronts at once.
  - facepalm 10y ago
    "the Russians would carpet bomb the nation with their version of the story" But how can they carpet bomb the US with fake news from Russia? "Even in Europe" Maybe Europe will have to shake off its arrogance and realize how much they have always depended on the US. I say that as an European - and here, also, people are divided over Trump, just as in the US. There are elections in Germany this year (if you meant Germany), although to be fair, no major shakeup is to be expected. But that is only for lack of an alternative, there is no Trump here to vote for. But maybe some adjustment of policies will occur before the election date, anyway. "Yes, but just like Hitler found out: you can't fight wars on all fronts at once." Still, making a tactical error is not in itself evil. And chaos is a tactic that sometimes works. It won him the election already.
facepalm 10y ago
Btw maybe you can explain the Taiwan thing to me? Why is it the obviously good thing to keep supporting China in their policy of claiming it?
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Well, in a nutshell: The 'One China' policy essentially is about saving face. China is extremely sensitive to not being seen as losing face because of bullying from the West about what they consider to be their sphere of influence. That in practice Taiwan acts and to all intents and purposes is an independent country doesn't matter as much as being able to claim that Taiwan is a republic of China does. So, if everybody would just pretend that the 'One China' view is the correct one while Taiwan gets away with being a relatively progressive democratic society everybody wins. If Trump starts throwing his weight around he might just trigger an invasion of Taiwan and just like Europe and the USA stood by while the Eastern part of Ukraine was annexed I do not expect anybody to lift a finger to stop it. That's why you don't put unstable bullies in charge of foreign diplomacy with your single largest trading partner and a formidable military power to boot. Vastly oversimplified but that's about the gist of it as far as I can see, corrections welcome.
  - facepalm 10y ago
    Sure, but that to me sounds like a technical argument, not a political one (that is, it is neither Republican or Democratic, for example). It is not really a moral argument. And it might not be the only possible scenario - in fact, with all the Hitler comparisons floating around, this stance towards China reminds me a lot of the appeasement politics towards Hitler. Ultimately, saving face with regard to Taiwan is probably just one part of the general trade deal with China? So as the other parts, it should probably be up for negotiation? Or even be a factor ("we pretend Taiwan belong to you, and you give us moar iPhones"). Not saying that protectionism is a good idea, but also not saying that all trade deals are always optimal for both parties. I think Ukraine was about more than saving face for Russia, too - Russia has always wanted the Krim for strategical reasons?
    - 10y ago