4 ms·

(Not OP, but I do work with Django every day for the past couple of months): 1. Django docs, while great compared to many other projects, are still quite lacki

by nir 16y ago

(Not OP, but I do work with Django every day for the past couple of months): 1. Django docs, while great compared to many other projects, are still quite lacking, especially in examples. 3. It's probably true, compared to the quantity of PHP coders out there. The average Django dev is probably better than the average PHP dev - again, quantity - but you don't always need the skills/costs of a really good dev. Sometimes you just need someone to install & customize Wordpress. 5. Not sure how memcache is related to that, but in any case - if your app can use significant caching, framework/language performance isn't an issue to begin with. 6. I don't really get the Pinax - RoR comparison. 7. See 5. 8. Honestly, coming to Django from RoR, and knowing that they both got going around the same time, I sometimes wonder what Django folks have been up to all that time ;) (To be fair, there are definitely things Rails could learn from Django) 9. Templating was just a poor design choice for Django, IMHO. Instead of using Python in the templates, as RoR/PHP do, you basically need to learn a new single-use language, which in time will inevitably get more like a real language anyway.

scorpioxy 16y ago
Regarding 1, the documentation is quite clear to me. Then again, this is an open source project and if you think that the documentation is lacking, then by all means try and improve it. If not for your benefit, then for the benefit of others like you. Speaking from experience, the core devs are very helpful on the list. Regarding 5, I think he means that the OP was not using the caching layer which should drop the load significantly. I think he's hinting that the slowdown is from the database rather than Django itself. Regarding 9, that's a matter of taste. I find their template tags quite good and I hate the tag soup with other systems. However, every templating system is going to be a compromise. Personally, I have no idea how to design one that would please both designers and programmers. Your point 3 is just plain weird.
- nir 16y ago
  >Then again, this is an open source project and if you think that the documentation is lacking, then by all means try and improve it Sure, but when it comes to a making a choice between technologies, most people would pick the one that already has good docs. >I think he's hinting that the slowdown is from the database rather than Django itself If that's the case, the OP wouldn't see much difference between Django & other solutions. >Regarding 9, that's a matter of taste Absolutely, as well as workflow. I'd say if you work in a place where designers write the HTML separately from developers, a templating language makes sense. If developers do it, using the native language is preferable. >Your point 3 is just plain weird How's that? (1) PHP is far more common than Django. (2) As result, Django devs cost more but have higher average skill. (3) Some web dev jobs are relatively low skill, so it's useful to have someone who can do them cheaply.
  - mkramlich 16y ago
    When I hear someone complain that Django doesn't have good docs it comes across to me like, say, I'm overhearing a teenager, who is seeing the Sears Tower in Chicago for the first time, and he says, "Not tall enough. Lame." I have to laugh, really. More perspective: I did graphics programming in an evil mix of BASIC and 6502 Assembly, way back long ago. Later I learned OpenGL -- a bit easier, but still a lot of learning curve, math, non-ideal docs, etc. Then I learned PyGame -- muuuuch easier. Then I was in a club meeting and heard a developer (who of course was pimping the latest foshizzle mine-not-yours graphics/game framework du jour) say something like, "PyGame? Too much boilerplate, too complex, too hard to learn." Left me speechless. Perhaps in 50 years we'll reach a point where if anything that needs to be done isn't fully automated and handed to us on a silver platter, people will complain, "Needs a button I can push to make it happen. No button. Lame. I'm going back to bed."
    - nir 16y ago
      I didn't complain about Django's docs. In fact I called them "great compared to many other projects". I did note they aren't perfect yet. (Basically I have the same opinion on Django as a whole) Looks like this discussion is becoming another platform war, something I'd hope HN & Django would avoid. FWIW, I also taught myself Z80 assembly back in the day. So? If I had an alternative that was easier to learn, I'd definitely take it. Unlike the 80s, users now are a download away from switching to a different platform if they find it more friendly. I think Django's developers actually realize that better than most.

by nir 16y ago

scorpioxy 16y ago

Regarding 1, the documentation is quite clear to me. Then again, this is an open source project and if you think that the documentation is lacking, then by all means try and improve it. If not for your benefit, then for the benefit of others like you. Speaking from experience, the core devs are very helpful on the list. Regarding 5, I think he means that the OP was not using the caching layer which should drop the load significantly. I think he's hinting that the slowdown is from the database rather than Django itself. Regarding 9, that's a matter of taste. I find their template tags quite good and I hate the tag soup with other systems. However, every templating system is going to be a compromise. Personally, I have no idea how to design one that would please both designers and programmers. Your point 3 is just plain weird.

nir 16y ago
>Then again, this is an open source project and if you think that the documentation is lacking, then by all means try and improve it Sure, but when it comes to a making a choice between technologies, most people would pick the one that already has good docs. >I think he's hinting that the slowdown is from the database rather than Django itself If that's the case, the OP wouldn't see much difference between Django & other solutions. >Regarding 9, that's a matter of taste Absolutely, as well as workflow. I'd say if you work in a place where designers write the HTML separately from developers, a templating language makes sense. If developers do it, using the native language is preferable. >Your point 3 is just plain weird How's that? (1) PHP is far more common than Django. (2) As result, Django devs cost more but have higher average skill. (3) Some web dev jobs are relatively low skill, so it's useful to have someone who can do them cheaply.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  When I hear someone complain that Django doesn't have good docs it comes across to me like, say, I'm overhearing a teenager, who is seeing the Sears Tower in Chicago for the first time, and he says, "Not tall enough. Lame." I have to laugh, really. More perspective: I did graphics programming in an evil mix of BASIC and 6502 Assembly, way back long ago. Later I learned OpenGL -- a bit easier, but still a lot of learning curve, math, non-ideal docs, etc. Then I learned PyGame -- muuuuch easier. Then I was in a club meeting and heard a developer (who of course was pimping the latest foshizzle mine-not-yours graphics/game framework du jour) say something like, "PyGame? Too much boilerplate, too complex, too hard to learn." Left me speechless. Perhaps in 50 years we'll reach a point where if anything that needs to be done isn't fully automated and handed to us on a silver platter, people will complain, "Needs a button I can push to make it happen. No button. Lame. I'm going back to bed."
  - nir 16y ago
    I didn't complain about Django's docs. In fact I called them "great compared to many other projects". I did note they aren't perfect yet. (Basically I have the same opinion on Django as a whole) Looks like this discussion is becoming another platform war, something I'd hope HN & Django would avoid. FWIW, I also taught myself Z80 assembly back in the day. So? If I had an alternative that was easier to learn, I'd definitely take it. Unlike the 80s, users now are a download away from switching to a different platform if they find it more friendly. I think Django's developers actually realize that better than most.