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In the long term, if this madness persists, of course they will. Companies and skilled individuals are transnational now, and if you try to shut them in or make

In the long term, if this madness persists, of course they will. Companies and skilled individuals are transnational now, and if you try to shut them in or make travel impossible, they'll just leave and set up somewhere else, or never come and found new companies in the first place. I think Trump and his supporters are playing by an outdated rule book and think they can turn the clock back on globalisation and force companies and people to stay within their borders however uncomfortable he makes it. There is a very similar dynamic going on with Brexit in the UK, but this will take years or decades to play out.

blibble 10y ago
> There is a very similar dynamic going on with Brexit in the UK the situation in the UK is very different, the political class are still entrenched and not going anywhere, whereas the US seems to be having a clean sweep Theresa May's position that the UK is still open to globalism and wants to sign as many free trade agreements, and reduce barriers to trade as far as possible as the UK leaves the EU.
- grey-area 10y ago
  On the contrary, I think the situation in the UK is very similar - nationalism and patriotism are being exploited to sell people a story of immigrants taking their jobs, lowering wages and causing crime. It's an old story but entirely false. Almost all the tech leaders in the US today are immigrants - e.g. Musk, Ellison, Brin, Yang, Bell, Omidyar. Even Jobs was the son of a Syrian immigrant. As to Trump being a clean sweep, there's nothing clean about his cabinet or advisors - he has one of the most traditional, male, rich, white cabinets in recent history and even includes family in his inner circle and in meetings. I don't think it's clean in any sense, neither new nor free of corruption.
  - blibble 10y ago
    > I think the situation in the UK is very similar - nationalism and patriotism are being exploited to sell people a false story of immigrants taking their jobs, lowering wages and causing crime. I haven't seen any evidence of this, outside of the tabloids (which would be business as usual) > As to Trump being a clean sweep, there's nothing clean about his cabinet or advisors - he has one of the most traditional, male, rich, white cabinets in recent history and even includes family in his inner circle and in meetings. clean sweep as in the old guard and their policies are gone (not the case in the UK)
    - grey-area 10y ago
      I haven't seen any evidence of this, outside of the tabloids Recent examples from the conservative conference: Exhibit 1: Amber Rudd vows to stop migrants 'taking jobs British people could do' and force companies to reveal number of foreigners they employ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/04/jeremy-hunt-nhs-doctors-theresa-may-conservative-conference-live/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/04/jeremy-hunt-nhs-d... Exhibit 2: On immigration and jobs, Theresa May employs the post-truth politics of Donald Trump http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/on-immigration-and-jobs-theresa-may-employs-the-post-truth-polit/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/on-immigration-an... Exhibit 3: Official policy is to cut migration to tens of thousands (that order of magnitude cut would leave many industries short of staff with an ageing population)
      - blibble 10y ago
        yep, I knew the Amber Rudd speech would be in your reply to my comment. 1) has been thoroughly debunked: she never said what the press accused her of saying. try and find the speech where she's talking about employers making lists of foreigners... you won't be able to because it doesn't exist. I looked quite extensively at the time for it, as I was horrified by what press were reporting her as saying... shame it's fake news. (in actual fact it was one of many potential ideas in a briefing note before the speech) 2) is an opinion piece, not evidence
        fauigerzigerk 10y ago
        It's not fake news in the sense that the proposal was never made. She just didn't make it in her speech. So it was more a case of sloppy reporting by some newspapers. Here's what the Guardian says about it: "The speech was followed by a background briefing by an aide who suggested firms could be required to publish lists of foreign workers. Rudd herself confirmed the next day that such lists were an option, but the idea was quickly dropped." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/12/amber-rudd-speech-on-foreign-workers-recorded-as-hate-incident https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/12/amber-rudd-... And I should add that the idea was dropped only after an outcry by businesses.
  - areyousure 10y ago
    Where did Ellison immigrate from?
    - grey-area 10y ago
      Sorry got that one wrong, his adoptive father was an immigrant, but Ellison was born in the US. Thanks for correcting.
crdoconnor 10y ago
In both cases it's a response to wage-repression that has been going on for decades. Trump simply leveraged the angry response to that to win. There are many more sensible political responses but they don't come from the establishment, they come from the left wing, and establishment/business interests/the media in the US and the UK is fanatically hostile to the left wing. Hitler's electoral rise was a similarly a response to wage repression by the Weimar Republic who was similarly fanatically hostile to the German left wing (KPD).

blibble 10y ago

> There is a very similar dynamic going on with Brexit in the UK the situation in the UK is very different, the political class are still entrenched and not going anywhere, whereas the US seems to be having a clean sweep Theresa May's position that the UK is still open to globalism and wants to sign as many free trade agreements, and reduce barriers to trade as far as possible as the UK leaves the EU.

grey-area 10y ago
On the contrary, I think the situation in the UK is very similar - nationalism and patriotism are being exploited to sell people a story of immigrants taking their jobs, lowering wages and causing crime. It's an old story but entirely false. Almost all the tech leaders in the US today are immigrants - e.g. Musk, Ellison, Brin, Yang, Bell, Omidyar. Even Jobs was the son of a Syrian immigrant. As to Trump being a clean sweep, there's nothing clean about his cabinet or advisors - he has one of the most traditional, male, rich, white cabinets in recent history and even includes family in his inner circle and in meetings. I don't think it's clean in any sense, neither new nor free of corruption.
- blibble 10y ago
  > I think the situation in the UK is very similar - nationalism and patriotism are being exploited to sell people a false story of immigrants taking their jobs, lowering wages and causing crime. I haven't seen any evidence of this, outside of the tabloids (which would be business as usual) > As to Trump being a clean sweep, there's nothing clean about his cabinet or advisors - he has one of the most traditional, male, rich, white cabinets in recent history and even includes family in his inner circle and in meetings. clean sweep as in the old guard and their policies are gone (not the case in the UK)
  - grey-area 10y ago
    I haven't seen any evidence of this, outside of the tabloids Recent examples from the conservative conference: Exhibit 1: Amber Rudd vows to stop migrants 'taking jobs British people could do' and force companies to reveal number of foreigners they employ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/04/jeremy-hunt-nhs-doctors-theresa-may-conservative-conference-live/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/04/jeremy-hunt-nhs-d... Exhibit 2: On immigration and jobs, Theresa May employs the post-truth politics of Donald Trump http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/on-immigration-and-jobs-theresa-may-employs-the-post-truth-polit/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/on-immigration-an... Exhibit 3: Official policy is to cut migration to tens of thousands (that order of magnitude cut would leave many industries short of staff with an ageing population)
    - blibble 10y ago
      yep, I knew the Amber Rudd speech would be in your reply to my comment. 1) has been thoroughly debunked: she never said what the press accused her of saying. try and find the speech where she's talking about employers making lists of foreigners... you won't be able to because it doesn't exist. I looked quite extensively at the time for it, as I was horrified by what press were reporting her as saying... shame it's fake news. (in actual fact it was one of many potential ideas in a briefing note before the speech) 2) is an opinion piece, not evidence
      - fauigerzigerk 10y ago
        It's not fake news in the sense that the proposal was never made. She just didn't make it in her speech. So it was more a case of sloppy reporting by some newspapers. Here's what the Guardian says about it: "The speech was followed by a background briefing by an aide who suggested firms could be required to publish lists of foreign workers. Rudd herself confirmed the next day that such lists were an option, but the idea was quickly dropped." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/12/amber-rudd-speech-on-foreign-workers-recorded-as-hate-incident https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/12/amber-rudd-... And I should add that the idea was dropped only after an outcry by businesses.
- areyousure 10y ago
  Where did Ellison immigrate from?
  - grey-area 10y ago
    Sorry got that one wrong, his adoptive father was an immigrant, but Ellison was born in the US. Thanks for correcting.

crdoconnor 10y ago

In both cases it's a response to wage-repression that has been going on for decades. Trump simply leveraged the angry response to that to win. There are many more sensible political responses but they don't come from the establishment, they come from the left wing, and establishment/business interests/the media in the US and the UK is fanatically hostile to the left wing. Hitler's electoral rise was a similarly a response to wage repression by the Weimar Republic who was similarly fanatically hostile to the German left wing (KPD).