3 ms·

>but didn't support Vulkan Do they really need to ?

by rubber_duck 10y ago

my123 10y ago
Vulkan works fine on Windows of course, the GPU makers handled it themselves instead.
- cwyers 10y ago
  Just like there's OpenGL support. id has shipped games that run on it!
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    And even Carmack came around on his statement about OpenGL versus DirectX. From this http://rmitz.org/carmack.on.opengl.html http://rmitz.org/carmack.on.opengl.html to this http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2011/03/11/carmack-directx-better-opengl/1 http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2011/03/11/carmack-direc... "It is really just inertia that keeps us on OpenGL at this point"
    - shmerl 10y ago
      Carmack didn't like OpenGL, and partially he was right about OpenGL's shortcomings. We was wrong however in his proposed solution (using DX). Using lock-in instead of making better open APIs is a really bad idea. Luckily others understood it better than him.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        The market and major game studios will decide.
        shmerl 10y ago
        Indeed, forward thinking studios and developers decided to fix this mess and participated in making Vulkan. Legacy thinking publishers, not so much. They aren't innovators in any sense of the word.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Which is only available on Android 7 (0.2%), GNU/Linux, Windows (no major titles announced, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_Vulkan_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_Vulkan_supp...) and Swift (yet to launch, developers also get NVN). Ah, and when using Unreal Engine, Crytek or Unity it doesn't matter.
        shmerl 10y ago
        > Which is only available on... It's available anywhere where developers have access to the drivers. Which highlights the point exactly. Those who care to fix the lock-in mess, help. Those who want to keep the balkanized status quo, actively prevent improving the situation. Trying to justify such behavior isn't just hypocritical - it's absurd.
shmerl 10y ago
Depends on how you define need. If you want to have a common open standard - absolutely. Same as with HTML instead of some ActiveX abomination. But if you want to have balkanized lock-in mess, then it's a different story. As long as MS has the notion of lock-in going on, I don't buy this whole "reformed" MS story.
- rubber_duck 10y ago
  I don't get what you're trying to say. Vulkan needs nothing from MS it's purely a driver thing, as for MS using DX over it I guess Vulkan is far too new and DX is proven and something you control (I wouldn't bet my core platform tech on something done by a committee either, maybe once it's a defacto standard), meanwhile GL is garbage compared to it, talk a aout Balkanization, good luck writing dx11 level features that work across two GL drivers.
  - cwyers 10y ago
    shmerl mentions Vulkan on every thread he possibly can, it feels like. It's his hobbyhorse. I think an Xbox owes him money or something.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Without having any understanding what people on the games industry actually care about.
      - shmerl 10y ago
        And you apparently represent those who profit from lock-in. Is that why you justify it all the time? Because no one would objectively do it. I never saw an engineer who said "lock-in is good, more lock-in please!". Those who do it, are backwards thinking managers like the one from this quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Vendor_lock-in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Vendor_...
        10y ago

>but didn't support Vulkan Do they really need to ?

my123 10y ago

Vulkan works fine on Windows of course, the GPU makers handled it themselves instead.

cwyers 10y ago
Just like there's OpenGL support. id has shipped games that run on it!
- pjmlp 10y ago
  And even Carmack came around on his statement about OpenGL versus DirectX. From this http://rmitz.org/carmack.on.opengl.html http://rmitz.org/carmack.on.opengl.html to this http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2011/03/11/carmack-directx-better-opengl/1 http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2011/03/11/carmack-direc... "It is really just inertia that keeps us on OpenGL at this point"
  - shmerl 10y ago
    Carmack didn't like OpenGL, and partially he was right about OpenGL's shortcomings. We was wrong however in his proposed solution (using DX). Using lock-in instead of making better open APIs is a really bad idea. Luckily others understood it better than him.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      The market and major game studios will decide.
      - shmerl 10y ago
        Indeed, forward thinking studios and developers decided to fix this mess and participated in making Vulkan. Legacy thinking publishers, not so much. They aren't innovators in any sense of the word.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Which is only available on Android 7 (0.2%), GNU/Linux, Windows (no major titles announced, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_Vulkan_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_Vulkan_supp...) and Swift (yet to launch, developers also get NVN). Ah, and when using Unreal Engine, Crytek or Unity it doesn't matter.
        shmerl 10y ago
        > Which is only available on... It's available anywhere where developers have access to the drivers. Which highlights the point exactly. Those who care to fix the lock-in mess, help. Those who want to keep the balkanized status quo, actively prevent improving the situation. Trying to justify such behavior isn't just hypocritical - it's absurd.

shmerl 10y ago

Depends on how you define need. If you want to have a common open standard - absolutely. Same as with HTML instead of some ActiveX abomination. But if you want to have balkanized lock-in mess, then it's a different story. As long as MS has the notion of lock-in going on, I don't buy this whole "reformed" MS story.

rubber_duck 10y ago
I don't get what you're trying to say. Vulkan needs nothing from MS it's purely a driver thing, as for MS using DX over it I guess Vulkan is far too new and DX is proven and something you control (I wouldn't bet my core platform tech on something done by a committee either, maybe once it's a defacto standard), meanwhile GL is garbage compared to it, talk a aout Balkanization, good luck writing dx11 level features that work across two GL drivers.
- cwyers 10y ago
  shmerl mentions Vulkan on every thread he possibly can, it feels like. It's his hobbyhorse. I think an Xbox owes him money or something.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Without having any understanding what people on the games industry actually care about.
    - shmerl 10y ago
      And you apparently represent those who profit from lock-in. Is that why you justify it all the time? Because no one would objectively do it. I never saw an engineer who said "lock-in is good, more lock-in please!". Those who do it, are backwards thinking managers like the one from this quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Vendor_lock-in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Vendor_...
      - 10y ago