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As a start I will point you here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Peoples_Republic_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_P

by bcl 16y ago

As a start I will point you here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Peoples_Republic_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Peoples_Rep... (note: that should be People's the HN url detector clobbers it) There are enough other sites with information on China's civil rights abuses that you should be able to duck Duck Go it ;) Living in a country with little or no respect for the law and expecting a reasonable outcome is not rational. You cannot extrapolate the experiences of your friends to cover the whole system, you don't have enough data. History shows us that China can be very ruthless in enforcing their idea of laws.

jacquesm 16y ago
That link points in to empty space, and even if it didn't I highly doubt you'll find a single documented case of a foreigner operating a business in China that was jailed, unless they were doing something illegal. Simply asking for resources with a statement that you'll be forced to leave if you can't work will most likely not result in a jail sentence or even any action at all. Without proof that's just scaremongering about China. We all know China has human rights abuses, but if you read the charter on human rights then you'd know that there is almost no single country that does not have their share of that. http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 Of course I can not extrapolate the experience of my friends to the whole system, but neither can you extrapolate the other way around and say that there is absolutely no reason in China at all and that a mere request would get you punished. Unless you can back that up with proof.
- hga 16y ago
  Your first sentence is a circular argument when the state gets to arbitrarily define what's illegal and notoriously includes legally undefined "state secrets" that have extended to basic economic information ... or anything that embarrasses someone in power.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Any state that I'm aware of works that way. The proverb is "If the state does it it is not illegal" for a reason. In some 'free' countries it is even illegal to talk about the state muzzling you or turning over information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter
    - falien 16y ago
      um... last sentence of the introductory blurb: "The gag order was ruled unconstitutional as an infringement of free speech, in the Doe v. Ashcroft case.[1]" I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments, but alot of the arguments and especially analogies you're using in this discussion are intellectually dishonest.
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        The fact that it was ruled un-constitutional does not take away the fact that this law was in effect for several years. And it's not the only example of such a law, and not all of them have been ruled un-constitutional. I don't know what you mean with 'intellectually dishonest', all I'm trying to do is to point out that there is plenty wrong in China but we in the so-called 'free west' have enough beams in our own eyes to preclude us from going all 'oh my' about China without qualifications. The anti-China sentiment here seems to be for the most part based on media and fear of the unknown rather than on solid facts, and you could make exactly the same case about the US and various other 'free' countries. I'm all for criticizing human rights violations, but then let's be fair and even handed about it, instead of suggesting that a simple request could get you in trouble with the law in China, which as far as I know from those that I know that live and work in China is simply not true. I also note that I was the one to step up and actually do something about this particular problem in this particular instance.
        falien 16y ago
        Like I said, I don't disagree with most of your sentiments. However, the fact that it was ruled unconstitutional refutes your assertion that it is illegal in the US, when in fact that law itself was determined to be illegal. I'm well aware that free speech in the US is limited, but I'm not aware of any other such draconian limitations that have been determined to be constitutional in the recent past. I would be interested to know about them (or possibly argue with you about them :P) if you cite some. While I'm painfully aware that the US is at a point on the spectrum far from what I consider to be ideal, that point is very much closer to my ideal than the point China occupies, and even the point most other western democracies occupy (that last was hugely disappointing to me when I realized it). The comment that struck me as most intellectually dishonest was the parallel you drew between the arrest of the British(?) businessman engaging in business which is illegal in the US, with US customers residing and present in the US when the business was conducted, with the arrest of a US citizen and/or foreign provider of marijuana in which the transaction occurs completely outside of the US where they claim no jurisdiction. To be sure there are many cases in which the US Govt oversteps its jurisdictional boundaries and they are not hard to find, so I found that comparison to be questionable. Lastly, I saw lower down in the comments that you volunteered your services to the OP and found it admirable, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything. Edit: I'm also not sure why you're getting downvoted on valid comments, even if I don't agree with them.
dublinclontarf 16y ago
I really recomend you read chinalawblog.com it's a great blog and can give you a picture of the law situation in China, which for some things is better than most think.

by bcl 16y ago

jacquesm 16y ago

That link points in to empty space, and even if it didn't I highly doubt you'll find a single documented case of a foreigner operating a business in China that was jailed, unless they were doing something illegal. Simply asking for resources with a statement that you'll be forced to leave if you can't work will most likely not result in a jail sentence or even any action at all. Without proof that's just scaremongering about China. We all know China has human rights abuses, but if you read the charter on human rights then you'd know that there is almost no single country that does not have their share of that. http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 Of course I can not extrapolate the experience of my friends to the whole system, but neither can you extrapolate the other way around and say that there is absolutely no reason in China at all and that a mere request would get you punished. Unless you can back that up with proof.

hga 16y ago
Your first sentence is a circular argument when the state gets to arbitrarily define what's illegal and notoriously includes legally undefined "state secrets" that have extended to basic economic information ... or anything that embarrasses someone in power.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Any state that I'm aware of works that way. The proverb is "If the state does it it is not illegal" for a reason. In some 'free' countries it is even illegal to talk about the state muzzling you or turning over information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter
  - falien 16y ago
    um... last sentence of the introductory blurb: "The gag order was ruled unconstitutional as an infringement of free speech, in the Doe v. Ashcroft case.[1]" I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments, but alot of the arguments and especially analogies you're using in this discussion are intellectually dishonest.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      The fact that it was ruled un-constitutional does not take away the fact that this law was in effect for several years. And it's not the only example of such a law, and not all of them have been ruled un-constitutional. I don't know what you mean with 'intellectually dishonest', all I'm trying to do is to point out that there is plenty wrong in China but we in the so-called 'free west' have enough beams in our own eyes to preclude us from going all 'oh my' about China without qualifications. The anti-China sentiment here seems to be for the most part based on media and fear of the unknown rather than on solid facts, and you could make exactly the same case about the US and various other 'free' countries. I'm all for criticizing human rights violations, but then let's be fair and even handed about it, instead of suggesting that a simple request could get you in trouble with the law in China, which as far as I know from those that I know that live and work in China is simply not true. I also note that I was the one to step up and actually do something about this particular problem in this particular instance.
      - falien 16y ago
        Like I said, I don't disagree with most of your sentiments. However, the fact that it was ruled unconstitutional refutes your assertion that it is illegal in the US, when in fact that law itself was determined to be illegal. I'm well aware that free speech in the US is limited, but I'm not aware of any other such draconian limitations that have been determined to be constitutional in the recent past. I would be interested to know about them (or possibly argue with you about them :P) if you cite some. While I'm painfully aware that the US is at a point on the spectrum far from what I consider to be ideal, that point is very much closer to my ideal than the point China occupies, and even the point most other western democracies occupy (that last was hugely disappointing to me when I realized it). The comment that struck me as most intellectually dishonest was the parallel you drew between the arrest of the British(?) businessman engaging in business which is illegal in the US, with US customers residing and present in the US when the business was conducted, with the arrest of a US citizen and/or foreign provider of marijuana in which the transaction occurs completely outside of the US where they claim no jurisdiction. To be sure there are many cases in which the US Govt oversteps its jurisdictional boundaries and they are not hard to find, so I found that comparison to be questionable. Lastly, I saw lower down in the comments that you volunteered your services to the OP and found it admirable, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything. Edit: I'm also not sure why you're getting downvoted on valid comments, even if I don't agree with them.

dublinclontarf 16y ago

I really recomend you read chinalawblog.com it's a great blog and can give you a picture of the law situation in China, which for some things is better than most think.