6 ms·

Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in

by bcl 16y ago

Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. Take it while you till have that option. As far as technical solutions, how good are they at tracking down individual, private VPN sessions? Setup OpenVPN on a friend's server and don't advertise it.

jacquesm 16y ago
> Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. Why? Two of my friends are doing the exact same thing (only their businesses are registered) and they're doing just fine. One moved there from the Netherlands, the other from Hungary. > And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. Neither can I, but that's not the same as having information. > The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. His s.o. wants to be in China, that's a tough choice you're giving him there. You mean a free country like the US perhaps: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-ceo-carruthers-gets-33-month-sentence-update1-.html http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... > Take it while you till have that option. Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps?
- sensemaker 16y ago
  >> Take it while you till have that option. >Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps? I think he meant to say, "while there are still free countries in this world".
- hga 16y ago
  "You mean a free country like the US perhaps: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-ceo-carruthers-gets-33-month-sentence-update1-.html http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... " I don't find it difficult to distinguish a country which by and large abides by the rule of law---even if one thinks upon occasion that the law is an ass---with a country that barely pretends. And we don't know what's going to be the long term consequences of the PRC's steadily increasing crackdown on the Internet. The current ruling class is clearly determined to not see a repeat of Tiananmen Square; not getting in their way strikes me as a very good idea, even if that means running a normal Internet business has become impossible.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    I gave that example because the entrepreneur it writes about was a foreigner visiting the US with a business outside of the US where his activities were legal.
    - hga 16y ago
      Indeed, but it's still within the confines of the rule of law. He could have avoided this unhappy conclusion by either not accepting business from the US that is illegal here or never stepping foot in the US. Heck, he could have joined Antigua in bringing this before the WTO in 2003: http://www.antiguawto.com/WTODispPg.html http://www.antiguawto.com/WTODispPg.html The law was published, well publicized and I find it very difficult to believe he didn't know or ever question why 98% of his business was as a result of it. That's different in nature from web sites steadily disappearing due to the Great Firewall of China. You could of course assume that any access you have to the outside will disappear some day, but you then wouldn't build a business that is based on international Internet access.
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        If it is legal to smoke pot in Amsterdam, but illegal to do it in the US would you consider it ok for US law enforcement to jail visitors that have smoked pot in Amsterdam, or sold pot to United States citizens?
        hga 16y ago
        I don't believe this has anything to do with what you or I think is OK, I think it has to do with the rule of law and how that helps or hinders businesses. Having reasonably clear constitutions (big C and small c), laws and rules allows one to plan for the future and focus on serving customers and the like instead of worrying if the state will inadvertently shut you down (I assume we're both assuming that what the poster is trying to do as a business is not against PRC state policy, it's just collateral damage).
        16y ago
- bcl 16y ago
  As a start I will point you here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Peoples_Republic_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Peoples_Rep... (note: that should be People's the HN url detector clobbers it) There are enough other sites with information on China's civil rights abuses that you should be able to duck Duck Go it ;) Living in a country with little or no respect for the law and expecting a reasonable outcome is not rational. You cannot extrapolate the experiences of your friends to cover the whole system, you don't have enough data. History shows us that China can be very ruthless in enforcing their idea of laws.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    That link points in to empty space, and even if it didn't I highly doubt you'll find a single documented case of a foreigner operating a business in China that was jailed, unless they were doing something illegal. Simply asking for resources with a statement that you'll be forced to leave if you can't work will most likely not result in a jail sentence or even any action at all. Without proof that's just scaremongering about China. We all know China has human rights abuses, but if you read the charter on human rights then you'd know that there is almost no single country that does not have their share of that. http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 Of course I can not extrapolate the experience of my friends to the whole system, but neither can you extrapolate the other way around and say that there is absolutely no reason in China at all and that a mere request would get you punished. Unless you can back that up with proof.
    - hga 16y ago
      Your first sentence is a circular argument when the state gets to arbitrarily define what's illegal and notoriously includes legally undefined "state secrets" that have extended to basic economic information ... or anything that embarrasses someone in power.
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        Any state that I'm aware of works that way. The proverb is "If the state does it it is not illegal" for a reason. In some 'free' countries it is even illegal to talk about the state muzzling you or turning over information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter
garply 16y ago
I voluntarily live in China and in many ways prefer living here to living in my homeland (the US). Otherwise, why would I be here? The food's great, the economy's great, people are friendly if you try to understand the culture, cost of living is low, and there's plenty of interesting historical stuff all around. Not to mention it's a very fascinating time to be here as you can see the most populous nation on Earth rapidly undergoing social and technological change. Just don't get so hung up on the politics and you'll find that the water's warm :)
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- Vivtek 16y ago
  And apparently don't rely on a working Internet.
  - jhancock 16y ago
    That's snarky and ignorant. I've lived in Shanghai for 10 years. The Internet blocking never effected my ability to deliver quality IT solutions to my customers.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      There you go again, injecting reason in to an otherwise entertaining argument not hindered by facts and figures. The 'red scare' seems to be alive and well.
      - Vivtek 16y ago
        A propos snark and ignorance, my wife is Hungarian, and as my other reply makes clear, this is less "red scare" and more "lack of connectivity scare". If you want to imply that all Americans live in fear of Communism, I can find you plenty that meet your prejudices, but painting us all with the same brush is pretty much calling the kettle black.
felipe 16y ago
> The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. Ask any of your black friends if they think they live in a free country. Ask latinos in Arizona. Ask gay couples who want to get married.

by bcl 16y ago

jacquesm 16y ago

> Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. Why? Two of my friends are doing the exact same thing (only their businesses are registered) and they're doing just fine. One moved there from the Netherlands, the other from Hungary. > And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. Neither can I, but that's not the same as having information. > The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. His s.o. wants to be in China, that's a tough choice you're giving him there. You mean a free country like the US perhaps: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-ceo-carruthers-gets-33-month-sentence-update1-.html http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... > Take it while you till have that option. Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps?

sensemaker 16y ago
>> Take it while you till have that option. >Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps? I think he meant to say, "while there are still free countries in this world".
hga 16y ago
"You mean a free country like the US perhaps: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-ceo-carruthers-gets-33-month-sentence-update1-.html http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... " I don't find it difficult to distinguish a country which by and large abides by the rule of law---even if one thinks upon occasion that the law is an ass---with a country that barely pretends. And we don't know what's going to be the long term consequences of the PRC's steadily increasing crackdown on the Internet. The current ruling class is clearly determined to not see a repeat of Tiananmen Square; not getting in their way strikes me as a very good idea, even if that means running a normal Internet business has become impossible.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  I gave that example because the entrepreneur it writes about was a foreigner visiting the US with a business outside of the US where his activities were legal.
  - hga 16y ago
    Indeed, but it's still within the confines of the rule of law. He could have avoided this unhappy conclusion by either not accepting business from the US that is illegal here or never stepping foot in the US. Heck, he could have joined Antigua in bringing this before the WTO in 2003: http://www.antiguawto.com/WTODispPg.html http://www.antiguawto.com/WTODispPg.html The law was published, well publicized and I find it very difficult to believe he didn't know or ever question why 98% of his business was as a result of it. That's different in nature from web sites steadily disappearing due to the Great Firewall of China. You could of course assume that any access you have to the outside will disappear some day, but you then wouldn't build a business that is based on international Internet access.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      If it is legal to smoke pot in Amsterdam, but illegal to do it in the US would you consider it ok for US law enforcement to jail visitors that have smoked pot in Amsterdam, or sold pot to United States citizens?
      - hga 16y ago
        I don't believe this has anything to do with what you or I think is OK, I think it has to do with the rule of law and how that helps or hinders businesses. Having reasonably clear constitutions (big C and small c), laws and rules allows one to plan for the future and focus on serving customers and the like instead of worrying if the state will inadvertently shut you down (I assume we're both assuming that what the poster is trying to do as a business is not against PRC state policy, it's just collateral damage).
        16y ago
bcl 16y ago
As a start I will point you here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Peoples_Republic_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Peoples_Rep... (note: that should be People's the HN url detector clobbers it) There are enough other sites with information on China's civil rights abuses that you should be able to duck Duck Go it ;) Living in a country with little or no respect for the law and expecting a reasonable outcome is not rational. You cannot extrapolate the experiences of your friends to cover the whole system, you don't have enough data. History shows us that China can be very ruthless in enforcing their idea of laws.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  That link points in to empty space, and even if it didn't I highly doubt you'll find a single documented case of a foreigner operating a business in China that was jailed, unless they were doing something illegal. Simply asking for resources with a statement that you'll be forced to leave if you can't work will most likely not result in a jail sentence or even any action at all. Without proof that's just scaremongering about China. We all know China has human rights abuses, but if you read the charter on human rights then you'd know that there is almost no single country that does not have their share of that. http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 Of course I can not extrapolate the experience of my friends to the whole system, but neither can you extrapolate the other way around and say that there is absolutely no reason in China at all and that a mere request would get you punished. Unless you can back that up with proof.
  - hga 16y ago
    Your first sentence is a circular argument when the state gets to arbitrarily define what's illegal and notoriously includes legally undefined "state secrets" that have extended to basic economic information ... or anything that embarrasses someone in power.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      Any state that I'm aware of works that way. The proverb is "If the state does it it is not illegal" for a reason. In some 'free' countries it is even illegal to talk about the state muzzling you or turning over information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter

garply 16y ago

I voluntarily live in China and in many ways prefer living here to living in my homeland (the US). Otherwise, why would I be here? The food's great, the economy's great, people are friendly if you try to understand the culture, cost of living is low, and there's plenty of interesting historical stuff all around. Not to mention it's a very fascinating time to be here as you can see the most populous nation on Earth rapidly undergoing social and technological change. Just don't get so hung up on the politics and you'll find that the water's warm :)

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
Vivtek 16y ago
And apparently don't rely on a working Internet.
- jhancock 16y ago
  That's snarky and ignorant. I've lived in Shanghai for 10 years. The Internet blocking never effected my ability to deliver quality IT solutions to my customers.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    There you go again, injecting reason in to an otherwise entertaining argument not hindered by facts and figures. The 'red scare' seems to be alive and well.
    - Vivtek 16y ago
      A propos snark and ignorance, my wife is Hungarian, and as my other reply makes clear, this is less "red scare" and more "lack of connectivity scare". If you want to imply that all Americans live in fear of Communism, I can find you plenty that meet your prejudices, but painting us all with the same brush is pretty much calling the kettle black.

felipe 16y ago

> The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. Ask any of your black friends if they think they live in a free country. Ask latinos in Arizona. Ask gay couples who want to get married.