8 ms·

China is choking the Internet

109 points by dublinclontarf 16y ago

I've been in China for just under a year, and in that time have found ever larger portions of the free internet cut off. At first it wasn't too hard to get around, using Google's cache, some web proxies and then Tor. But the state is cracking down, cutting off more of these avenues. Google cache is now blocked, deep packet inspection is analysing traffic that comes from web based proxies and blocking anything... that's normally blocked. And finally Tor is being effectively tackled. It's public list of access points to the Tor network is blocked, and now Tor bridges are being blocked hours and minutes after them being made available. Tor is being defeated. Top this off with an ever growing list of useful websites and services being cut off; half of anything Google does, Dropbox, and now Zoho.com's services. Just as I begin a small web development company based in China, we get our first customer in the U.S. and are about to start using Zoho to manage the project only to find that it's blocked (it was working yesterday dammit!). What kind of damage is this doing to China's startups? I mean I can't be the only one that this is affecting? I'm on a shoes-string budget and even if I had the cash I don't have a credit card that can make payments in $US to buy VPN access. Sorry for the rant but first Dropbox and now this, it's getting ridiculous. Any ideas on dealing with this?

medecau 16y ago
Protest!
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- FluidDjango 16y ago
  But be prepared to die under the treads of a tank.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    The Tiananmen Square protests were in 1989, well before the rise of widespread internet usage, I wonder if given the speed with which information moves around these days if the government of China would risk a second confrontation in the public eye like that. While the OP states clearly that the government is doing a lot to crack down on communication with foreign entities I can't help but think that communication inside China is still on average a lot faster today than it was in 1989. Are mesh networks illegal in China?
    - Supermighty 16y ago
      I think you're correct, but China still tries its best to crack down on this. Remember the iPhone is sold in China without wifi. Probably to cut down on this exactly.
  - tybris 16y ago
    Nah, they'll stop the tank and show their mercy to the international public, while an onslaught of protesting students is going on outside the view of the camera. Then you'll get taken away by a man on a bicycle and never heard from again.
jacquesm 16y ago
Well, since you've been in China less than a year and you're finding out that it hampers your ability to run a business, why not state loud & clear to the government they'll be losing your business and move out? It's not like you don't have options, as opposed to the majority of the Chinese population, for who moving out is not an option.
- michaelcampbell 16y ago
  Perhaps I'm overly paranoid, but I think moving out first, then getting all uppity with gov't is probably a saner route.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    He's posted below that his business is not registered, so there is nothing to get uppity about. Also, after moving out there is not much to gain from the situation any more so any time you invest in to getting 'uppity' is wasted. On another note, I wonder how much of the paranoia is really warranted and how much of it is based on media hype, I have two friends working in China and they're managing to get along with government officials well enough, so far, even when they're critical. Does anybody from China have any experience with 'getting uppity' with Chinese officials as a foreigner doing business in China? As in "Hi, I need this to do my work, can you provide it or will I have to leave?" (which doesn't sound all that uppity to me anyway). edit: by the way, funny the moderation in this thread is making me wonder how many people on HN have an irrational fear about all things Chinese. They can't all be moderating out of personal experience.
    - Bjoern 16y ago
      You don't get "uppity" with Chinese officials. You either have a good connection to the government or you can do squat. Government ties is everything if you really want to get your business going. The real problem is the international companies providing all this nifty IT tech to actually realize this 1984 path what is going on in China.
      - 16y ago
f1x3r 16y ago
3 options : 1 - Playball 2 - Dodgeball 3 - Run ...
baby 16y ago
Well. You're obviously not chinese. It is not your role to play.
doki_pen 16y ago
For 20USD/mo you can setup a VPS and create your own vpn service using openswan. Is 20USD/mo too much?
- hga 16y ago
  From the original posting: "[...] even if I had the cash I don't have a credit card that can make payments in $US to buy VPN access" And avoiding a paper trail is wise if things eventually get ugly.
SachaG 16y ago
You could say that this is actually beneficial for chinese startups, because without access to foreign alternatives chinese users are forced to use their services. I don't think it's a coincidence if most segments of the chinese internet are dominated by a company from China, not the USA. The other goal that the Chinese government is achieving, is that by pushing chinese users towards chinese companies, they make sure that they keep them under their thumb. It's much easier for them to take down a video from Youku than from Youtube.
- potatolicious 16y ago
  That's slightly oversimplified I think, and risks ignoring e greater causes of why Chinese internet companies have succeeded beyond American ones in that market. Facebook ripoffs like Xiaonei were vastly more popular than Facebook itself even when no block was in place.
  - SachaG 16y ago
    I didn't say that was the only cause, but I'm pretty sure it's one of the main factors in those sites' success.
voxio 16y ago
Rent a VPS or dedicated server outside china and use an SSH proxy. Linux: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/06/18/tunnel-web-and-dns-traffic-over-ssh/ http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/06/18/tunnel-web-and-dns-tr... Windows: http://www.dotcomunderground.com/blogs/2008/12/11/putty-ssh-tunnel-to-hide-ip/ http://www.dotcomunderground.com/blogs/2008/12/11/putty-ssh-...
- Bjoern 16y ago
  Expect everything going through the great firewall to be slow. Also I wonder if they will allow encrypted connections over a longer period at all if they already run a app firewall.
  - nicolas_t 16y ago
    That's what I'm doing, it's not very slow (or at least I don't really feel the difference)... I don't think they'll ever block encrypted connections because that would deal a major blow to the foreign companies working here.
joubert 16y ago
Move to Hong Kong?
- Bjoern 16y ago
  The inet connection into mainland from that route is very slow.
- mahmud 16y ago
  The standard of living is much, MUCH better in China than in Hong Kong. HK is stressful.
kbob 16y ago
How long will China tolerate VPNs? While they are an essential tool for international business, they also completely defeat the firewall.
- nicolas_t 16y ago
  The chinese government don't care about VPN that target people with credit cards that can pay in US dollars because most local chinese won't have access to that and those that do are also likely to travel abroad and be exposed to all that information anyway...
  - fuckingchina 16y ago
    Not always. Different ISP's block different things and work/home connections also have different rules. Once I came home to find they blocked the port to SSH & VPN. After 1 month of fighting with the IT management in the local building they opened it again.
    - 0wned 16y ago
      Run your OpenSSH server on port 80 or 443.
    - vorg 16y ago
      Yep! The Great Firewall is only the outermost layer of blocking inside China. The ISP blocks plenty: only last week they suspended my account for a few days, probably as a "threat". It seems officials develop connections with the ISP's to collect surfing histories of customers these officials have an interest in. There's no concept of "providing an internet service to customers" in the minds of the ISP managers. If you use a Chinese ISP for any sort of web-hosting, be aware it may be vandalized by anyone willing to pay 100 rmb (i.e. 15 US dollars).
- jhancock 16y ago
  I think VPNs are there to stay. They do not defeat the purpose of the firewall.
bcl 16y ago
Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. Take it while you till have that option. As far as technical solutions, how good are they at tracking down individual, private VPN sessions? Setup OpenVPN on a friend's server and don't advertise it.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  > Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. Why? Two of my friends are doing the exact same thing (only their businesses are registered) and they're doing just fine. One moved there from the Netherlands, the other from Hungary. > And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. Neither can I, but that's not the same as having information. > The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. His s.o. wants to be in China, that's a tough choice you're giving him there. You mean a free country like the US perhaps: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-ceo-carruthers-gets-33-month-sentence-update1-.html http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... > Take it while you till have that option. Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps?
  - sensemaker 16y ago
    >> Take it while you till have that option. >Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps? I think he meant to say, "while there are still free countries in this world".
  - hga 16y ago
    "You mean a free country like the US perhaps: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-ceo-carruthers-gets-33-month-sentence-update1-.html http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... " I don't find it difficult to distinguish a country which by and large abides by the rule of law---even if one thinks upon occasion that the law is an ass---with a country that barely pretends. And we don't know what's going to be the long term consequences of the PRC's steadily increasing crackdown on the Internet. The current ruling class is clearly determined to not see a repeat of Tiananmen Square; not getting in their way strikes me as a very good idea, even if that means running a normal Internet business has become impossible.
iamwil 16y ago
I don't know that it damages their startups. If anything, they make me-too products that mimic those here for their own domestic market.
grandalf 16y ago
Sign up for a $20 slice at slice host, install squid, and configure a ssh tunnel to it. Tell your browser to use the tunneled proxy. Voilà. Edit: just saw two others recommended this approach.
- beilabs 16y ago
  I lived in China for years, I recommend this approach....
  - 0wned 16y ago
    Be sure to push your DNS through the OpenSSH tunnel too, or they'll see your client's DNS requests. Here is a very short write-up on safe web browsing while on untrusted networks: http://16systems.com/OpenBSD/untrusted.pdf http://16systems.com/OpenBSD/untrusted.pdf
    - X-Istence 16y ago
      Instead of an OpenSSH tunnel, use OpenVPN. It has settings to automatically push DNS, and on my Mac for example using Tunnelblick (a wrapper) I can have a GUI that can give me status updates on my tunnels, and when they get disconnected, to make sure I don't accidentally sent information down the wrong line.
    - thyrsus 16y ago
      For proxied services, the proxy (e.g., squid) server on the other end of the ssh tunnel will be making the DNS requests. If you want to be fastidious enough to hide the DNS for un-proxied services, you'll probably also want to have a firewall blocking and logging most outgoing non-tunneled services so you can identify them and configure the clients and proxy appropriately.
- bcl 16y ago
  The problem with this is the same as for services like dropbox. If enough people do this they will start blocking the slicehost IPs. To be successful you need to have * IP usage distributed over a wide range * private distribution of proxy details * ability to switch to a new proxy when your current one is blocked Tor tries to accomplish most of this, but from the OP's post it appears that it is being effectively blocked, either by watching Tor entry points or by packet inspection.
siculars 16y ago
I've said this in other China related threads but I think China will just end up black-holing themselves.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  And risk a huge hit to their economy?
friendstock 16y ago
move to Taiwan?
- elai 16y ago
  Moving to taiwan/hk/macau and taking cheap flights to the mainland could be a good alternative.
braindead_in 16y ago
There seems to be a great market DPI and other "security" focused technologies. You can always sell such products to Governments. That being said, I find it hard to believe that the internet can be censored and regulated. It just takes too much time and effort to be worth it. Whatever the technology used, there will always be workarounds. There is no such thing as foolproof technology. More and more its seems like a big con. The Government wanted it and some smart guy told them it can be done. He must be making a lot of money now.
- hga 16y ago
  The ruling class of the PRC is currently willing to keep power by any means necessary. I'm hesitant to bet against a ruling class while it still maintains its own Gulag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai) and gets 65% of the country's organs for transplant from those it executes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%...). Yes, someday it will likely all come tumbling down, although I think that history shows that tends to happen when the ruling class loses the will to engage in such extremes. Or if its own history is any guide it might split apart again. But in the meanwhile they clearly think its worth the time and effort. And little mammals like us startup types need to be careful to avoid getting trampled underfoot.
  - jhancock 16y ago
    Why does it have to come tumbling down? Can't you see a way forward where things improve without violence? There isn't one ruling class. I've seen government power change several times in Shanghai and at the national level over 10 years. You sound very pessimistic. What are doing to make the world a better place? Here are a few suggestions: * If you are a Chinese national, go home and become a member of the party, vote, and get involved in making your country better. * If you have a method to fix one of the many problem in China (pollution, energy, etc.) you should go show it to the person in the Chinese gov that handles such policy. If you've got a great solution, I can get you touch with people that will listen.
rubyrescue 16y ago
i've got a proxy or two you can use in the states, email me.
garply 16y ago
dublinclontarf, I live in and run a business in China. I solve my problems with a VPN. I find the GFW an annoyance, but not a huge one. It mostly just means my connection is slower when I access certain sites. Do you live in Beijing? I'd be happy to meet up with you if you're in the area.
- dublinclontarf 16y ago
  S(Gl)adly I don't live in Beijing, but Nanchang, it's a developing city in the south, Jiangxi province. Nothing like a startup hub here but the cost of living is far below that of Beijing.
- fuckingchina 16y ago
  I live in Beijing, post away
  - vorg 16y ago
    You mean: "Jingapore"
elai 16y ago
There are so many things that will require us dollars, euros, whatever over credit cards for your business anyway, so get a card that can do currency exchange anyway?
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
crazydiamond 16y ago
Sorry to hear this. Can't you move out ? Why China - or is there no option. Can you not split some work with another Asian country - India for example ?
geek_silk 16y ago
china is a f*ing country
- juvenn 16y ago
  Please clarify, it's the government, not all Chinese people, who can be as friendly and kindly as every faithful human on the earth.
  - geek_silk 16y ago
    Yaa i am talking about government, not Chinese people. I know people are good, hard working.
  - vorg 16y ago
    The government is made up of people. After living in China for a while, you soon find some Chinese people are friendly to your face, but are monitoring your emails thru your ISP, or tracking your movements around the city, or arranging for a breakin at your apartment. And these are young Chinese, just doing what their seniors showed them. Young Chinese don't have the concept in their minds that internet blocking harms innovation, and will do the same in government when they replace their elders.
simonjoe 16y ago
Move away from china. There's nothing for us there.
p0larboy 16y ago
dude i'm in china too.. Freegate for the win
jhancock 16y ago
You simply need someone to give you SSH access to a server outside China. Setup a SOCKS proxy through SSH and you can get anywhere you want. Using some SaaS from inside China can be a problem (even with your SSH tunnel) due to latency and bandwidth. Find other tools. Folks have been building Internet companies for quite some time without needing cool JavaScript SaaS collaborative cloud thingies.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Already done. I gave him an account on one of my machines, it's up and running.
mkramlich 16y ago
I think it's your fault for choosing to move to China then starting a web business that needs US access. It was very well known what China was like with respect to the web before you did this. It's a bit like moving to the North Pole to start a beach resort then complaining about how cold it is, all the snow, etc.
- vorg 16y ago
  In fact China gradually liberalized the internet in the months and years leading up to the Aug 2008 Olympics, and there was virtually no blocking from Aug 2008 to March 2009. Many foreigners here thought the Chinese had seen some sense. But then the restrictions started piling on. The ones I noticed: Youtube in March 2009, Blogspot in May 2009, Google Groups around Nov 2009.
fuckingchina 16y ago
I also run a web company in Beijing, and feel your pain. Quite simply things like google groups which help in work, and access to coding/design blogs and material/advice. It's a fucking nightmare and pisses me off to no end. I wake up, and click through HN feeds and 30% of them don't work. Even with a proxy you have to connect which might mess with your other settings, refresh, links come in slow. Then you need to disconnect since most VPN's tunnel ALL traffic via their servers. You are also logged off MSN so any conversations go missing. China is like IE6. Only worse.
Super74 16y ago
As I write this I too am having to go through a VPN to access the world. Even when it works properly, I constantly have to "play the VPN game." I really don't have the time to list out every item from jhancock that I disagree with, but pretty much all of them made me grimace. And I find it poignant that he no longer lives here. I too live in Shanghai and have for the past 5 years. I came here looking for another view on life and to see what all the media fuss was about. Don't get me wrong, I love the food, the excitement of living in a foreign country, have a wonderful chinese wife and in-laws and now take the good with the bad. But I now see why the US is #1 in many areas and continues to bring positivity to the world, for the most part. I fully understand why millions of people attempt to immigrate to the US every year. Clean water, clean air, freedom to buy property, move where you like and a legal system that can be counted on. Nothing is perfect and there are exceptions, but China is a land with no law and it really never was. What the emperor wanted, he got. Contracts mean nothing, police cannot be counted on for much, other than brokering bribes between parties on the street and judges feel if you are in front of them, you did something wrong, regardless of the situation. I have run my own business as well, legally, and have seen actions on part of my partners and customers that have blown my mind. The scams and lies now make me smile and I take them as lessons on what a person can do. It is the wild west over here. As for the internet service, forget about it. Without SLAs, your provider is obligated to give you nothing. Either pay or they turn off your service. My home service is 150RMB/ month, my office, 2500RMB/ month because I am in an office building and they think we can afford more. My home service works above and beyond my best day in the office. IP also means nothing, so the West continues to get raped over anything that might bring a profit from SW to design to web 2.0 opportunities. It's about block and copy and we are letting them step all over the WTO guidelines. Cisco? MS? Those sell-outs? They built the great firewall! I can tell you, they have not made more money than they have invested, but they will never admit it. Everyones' hope to finally make a buck someday in the future over here. The dream of any foreign company.....that never comes. Ask Grumman. Ask Pepsi. Ask GM with their 49/50 joint venture. The air smells, the water putrid and cars drive on the sidewalk. Oh, and what is a red light? A color. And this is in their greatest international city. The rest of the country dives into the 18th century. I have been from top to bottom. US creativity and ingenuity in technologies, film, music , popular trends, fashion, social improvements were all built on a legal system that has lasted over 200 years and continues to roll with the punches. China? The CCP just hit 60 and they still don't know what to call themselves. Communist? Socialist? Quasi-capitalist? A little copy of all of them. That's confusion, not progress. Mark my words, we will be dealing with the worst kind of monster, an enabled one. I am talking about the CCP, not the Chinese people themselves. Know the difference. Blocking the internet is nothing, remember Tienanmen? They killed their own students and that says it all. Those leaders are still in power and are about to "elect" their children in 2012. Well, I guess I did cover most of his comments. ha! And by the way, this summer, I will be finally coming home for good and will kiss the ground of a National Park when I do.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
jenhsun 16y ago
Here is a simple solution might help...Get a vacation out of China. Setup a VPN and done. If you love Chinese culture and freedom, you better try Taiwan. It's a republic (100 years mostly), democratic little island with Chinese traditional culture inside. I think if you want to do a startup for your future business entrance into China. Taiwan might be great for you. Although the market is small, but you can think that's an exercise/evaluation in China market. After all, you won't sacrifice your freedom and social justice. Oh, by the way, there will be a FTA (ECFA) coming up between China and Taiwan. Sooner or later there will be lots of trade activities going on between the strait.
- varjag 16y ago
  Another vote for Taiwan. People are friendly, the society is (mostly) free and you don't have to compromise your conscience. Food is great, diverse and safe. Granted, local driving habits are suicidal, but that not really different from the mainland. The level of technical expertise around is very high. I've been doing hardware development in Taipei, and for about any component you can source vendor's field assistance engineer within a day. The trade agreement though seems to be very heated topic there, with lots of lobbying pro and contra. But ultimately it is likely to come through.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
xster 16y ago
+10 points for HN I don't agree with a lot of points of view here but I'm so glad it's happening here on HN rather than on Digg or something. Almost everyone who expresses their political views have been in China or does business in China rather than just repeating what fox news said. I have gained new respects for HN
Super74 16y ago
If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the "China" topic can bring an emotionally heated debate and it's great to have the platform to discuss such issues. Thanks to pg for that! Forums such as these are not as common in the rest of the world as one could naively believe. But to bring this back to dublinclontarf 's original comment, I will write my last words on the subject. As we are becoming more and more dependent on this thing called the internet, we must begin to create and offer the same types of securities, rights of access, usage and opportunities to the world, equally. Under the guidelines of free trade, like the WTO, we should have these already in place in some areas As online businesses are businesses, none the less, they should be given their due protection. By restricting internet businesses from others and controlling what can and cannot be said on them is wrong. As China grows to become more powerful and has more ability to control their internet, I can only see a darker future for the state of freedom in China. What we see now, are only examples of the type of governing and leadership in the CCP today. Human rights, free speech, social stability and environmental well-being all grow from the same tree. That tree looks to be quite unhealthy. Bottom line, you do not have the freedom to discuss what you like on the internet in China. Period. Do so and you risk anything from losing a business license or police harassment to imprisonment or worse, in extreme cases. You do not have complete access to the online businesses being created daily across the globe. These are facts. These freedoms that we take for granted in the US (I am an American) come from a basis of law and order. As I said before it is not perfect. Nothing humans create is. But from that law, we have much prosperity. the clean air comes from regulations and restrictions on wanton over-development, national parks have come from the common man fighting big business to protect something pure. By the way, even our president had to use his constitutional power to save one of the world's most precious gifts, the Grand Canyon, from the might of big business. And millions of immigrants have found a home to raise their families and prosper in their own unique ways. Governments that oppress these freedoms and deny those rights have never fully grown to become world powers and beacons of hope. They made money and won some wars, but were never considered safe havens. The problems associated with Internet and Freedom in China are merely symptoms of larger issues looming on the horizon. As we build this world wide web ever larger and stronger, we will see just how those two ideas are so intertwined.
Super74 16y ago
By the way the, VPNs of choice for China are Skydur and Freedur. Cheap and reliable.
dnsworks 16y ago
The common theme about doing business in China is that China is very adept at making sure that money invested into China never, ever leaves the great financial wall of China.
seanlinmt 16y ago
It will always be an unending battle between hackers and the 'filterers'. Actually, I wonder if there's another motive behind the filtering. I reckon by blocking access to certain foreign sites, it is actually giving opportunities to the locals to come up with their own home-brewed version of the service. The government is helping you kill off foreign competition. Maybe it should be a case of "when there's a big problem, there's a big opportunity."
theprodigy 16y ago
I am well schooled in foreign policy, political and economic strategy. People have to realize that at this point in time China can't have completely free informational channels, as we enjoy here in America. You have millions of rural uneducated people in china that if give the right motivation can destabalize the country. To prevent that destabalization from happening you have to control informational channels and the information being delivered on it, especially when China is going through a transitional period. At the macro level on of the biggest threats to globalization is the integration of China into the global system.
nfriedly 16y ago
How much does a US-based VPN service cost? What would be a reasonable price? If any China-based hackers are interested, I'd consider setting one up for a price on the short side of fair.

109 points by dublinclontarf 16y ago

medecau 16y ago

Protest!

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
FluidDjango 16y ago
But be prepared to die under the treads of a tank.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  The Tiananmen Square protests were in 1989, well before the rise of widespread internet usage, I wonder if given the speed with which information moves around these days if the government of China would risk a second confrontation in the public eye like that. While the OP states clearly that the government is doing a lot to crack down on communication with foreign entities I can't help but think that communication inside China is still on average a lot faster today than it was in 1989. Are mesh networks illegal in China?
  - Supermighty 16y ago
    I think you're correct, but China still tries its best to crack down on this. Remember the iPhone is sold in China without wifi. Probably to cut down on this exactly.
- tybris 16y ago
  Nah, they'll stop the tank and show their mercy to the international public, while an onslaught of protesting students is going on outside the view of the camera. Then you'll get taken away by a man on a bicycle and never heard from again.

jacquesm 16y ago

Well, since you've been in China less than a year and you're finding out that it hampers your ability to run a business, why not state loud & clear to the government they'll be losing your business and move out? It's not like you don't have options, as opposed to the majority of the Chinese population, for who moving out is not an option.

michaelcampbell 16y ago
Perhaps I'm overly paranoid, but I think moving out first, then getting all uppity with gov't is probably a saner route.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  He's posted below that his business is not registered, so there is nothing to get uppity about. Also, after moving out there is not much to gain from the situation any more so any time you invest in to getting 'uppity' is wasted. On another note, I wonder how much of the paranoia is really warranted and how much of it is based on media hype, I have two friends working in China and they're managing to get along with government officials well enough, so far, even when they're critical. Does anybody from China have any experience with 'getting uppity' with Chinese officials as a foreigner doing business in China? As in "Hi, I need this to do my work, can you provide it or will I have to leave?" (which doesn't sound all that uppity to me anyway). edit: by the way, funny the moderation in this thread is making me wonder how many people on HN have an irrational fear about all things Chinese. They can't all be moderating out of personal experience.
  - Bjoern 16y ago
    You don't get "uppity" with Chinese officials. You either have a good connection to the government or you can do squat. Government ties is everything if you really want to get your business going. The real problem is the international companies providing all this nifty IT tech to actually realize this 1984 path what is going on in China.
    - 16y ago

f1x3r 16y ago

3 options : 1 - Playball 2 - Dodgeball 3 - Run ...

baby 16y ago

Well. You're obviously not chinese. It is not your role to play.

doki_pen 16y ago

For 20USD/mo you can setup a VPS and create your own vpn service using openswan. Is 20USD/mo too much?

hga 16y ago
From the original posting: "[...] even if I had the cash I don't have a credit card that can make payments in $US to buy VPN access" And avoiding a paper trail is wise if things eventually get ugly.

SachaG 16y ago

You could say that this is actually beneficial for chinese startups, because without access to foreign alternatives chinese users are forced to use their services. I don't think it's a coincidence if most segments of the chinese internet are dominated by a company from China, not the USA. The other goal that the Chinese government is achieving, is that by pushing chinese users towards chinese companies, they make sure that they keep them under their thumb. It's much easier for them to take down a video from Youku than from Youtube.

potatolicious 16y ago
That's slightly oversimplified I think, and risks ignoring e greater causes of why Chinese internet companies have succeeded beyond American ones in that market. Facebook ripoffs like Xiaonei were vastly more popular than Facebook itself even when no block was in place.
- SachaG 16y ago
  I didn't say that was the only cause, but I'm pretty sure it's one of the main factors in those sites' success.

voxio 16y ago

Rent a VPS or dedicated server outside china and use an SSH proxy. Linux: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/06/18/tunnel-web-and-dns-traffic-over-ssh/ http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/06/18/tunnel-web-and-dns-tr... Windows: http://www.dotcomunderground.com/blogs/2008/12/11/putty-ssh-tunnel-to-hide-ip/ http://www.dotcomunderground.com/blogs/2008/12/11/putty-ssh-...

Bjoern 16y ago
Expect everything going through the great firewall to be slow. Also I wonder if they will allow encrypted connections over a longer period at all if they already run a app firewall.
- nicolas_t 16y ago
  That's what I'm doing, it's not very slow (or at least I don't really feel the difference)... I don't think they'll ever block encrypted connections because that would deal a major blow to the foreign companies working here.

joubert 16y ago

Move to Hong Kong?

Bjoern 16y ago
The inet connection into mainland from that route is very slow.
mahmud 16y ago
The standard of living is much, MUCH better in China than in Hong Kong. HK is stressful.

kbob 16y ago

How long will China tolerate VPNs? While they are an essential tool for international business, they also completely defeat the firewall.

nicolas_t 16y ago
The chinese government don't care about VPN that target people with credit cards that can pay in US dollars because most local chinese won't have access to that and those that do are also likely to travel abroad and be exposed to all that information anyway...
- fuckingchina 16y ago
  Not always. Different ISP's block different things and work/home connections also have different rules. Once I came home to find they blocked the port to SSH & VPN. After 1 month of fighting with the IT management in the local building they opened it again.
  - 0wned 16y ago
    Run your OpenSSH server on port 80 or 443.
  - vorg 16y ago
    Yep! The Great Firewall is only the outermost layer of blocking inside China. The ISP blocks plenty: only last week they suspended my account for a few days, probably as a "threat". It seems officials develop connections with the ISP's to collect surfing histories of customers these officials have an interest in. There's no concept of "providing an internet service to customers" in the minds of the ISP managers. If you use a Chinese ISP for any sort of web-hosting, be aware it may be vandalized by anyone willing to pay 100 rmb (i.e. 15 US dollars).
jhancock 16y ago
I think VPNs are there to stay. They do not defeat the purpose of the firewall.

bcl 16y ago

Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. Take it while you till have that option. As far as technical solutions, how good are they at tracking down individual, private VPN sessions? Setup OpenVPN on a friend's server and don't advertise it.

jacquesm 16y ago
> Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. Why? Two of my friends are doing the exact same thing (only their businesses are registered) and they're doing just fine. One moved there from the Netherlands, the other from Hungary. > And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. Neither can I, but that's not the same as having information. > The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. His s.o. wants to be in China, that's a tough choice you're giving him there. You mean a free country like the US perhaps: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-ceo-carruthers-gets-33-month-sentence-update1-.html http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... > Take it while you till have that option. Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps?
- sensemaker 16y ago
  >> Take it while you till have that option. >Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps? I think he meant to say, "while there are still free countries in this world".
- hga 16y ago
  "You mean a free country like the US perhaps: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-ceo-carruthers-gets-33-month-sentence-update1-.html http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... " I don't find it difficult to distinguish a country which by and large abides by the rule of law---even if one thinks upon occasion that the law is an ass---with a country that barely pretends. And we don't know what's going to be the long term consequences of the PRC's steadily increasing crackdown on the Internet. The current ruling class is clearly determined to not see a repeat of Tiananmen Square; not getting in their way strikes me as a very good idea, even if that means running a normal Internet business has become impossible.

iamwil 16y ago

I don't know that it damages their startups. If anything, they make me-too products that mimic those here for their own domestic market.

grandalf 16y ago

Sign up for a $20 slice at slice host, install squid, and configure a ssh tunnel to it. Tell your browser to use the tunneled proxy. Voilà. Edit: just saw two others recommended this approach.

beilabs 16y ago
I lived in China for years, I recommend this approach....
- 0wned 16y ago
  Be sure to push your DNS through the OpenSSH tunnel too, or they'll see your client's DNS requests. Here is a very short write-up on safe web browsing while on untrusted networks: http://16systems.com/OpenBSD/untrusted.pdf http://16systems.com/OpenBSD/untrusted.pdf
  - X-Istence 16y ago
    Instead of an OpenSSH tunnel, use OpenVPN. It has settings to automatically push DNS, and on my Mac for example using Tunnelblick (a wrapper) I can have a GUI that can give me status updates on my tunnels, and when they get disconnected, to make sure I don't accidentally sent information down the wrong line.
  - thyrsus 16y ago
    For proxied services, the proxy (e.g., squid) server on the other end of the ssh tunnel will be making the DNS requests. If you want to be fastidious enough to hide the DNS for un-proxied services, you'll probably also want to have a firewall blocking and logging most outgoing non-tunneled services so you can identify them and configure the clients and proxy appropriately.
bcl 16y ago
The problem with this is the same as for services like dropbox. If enough people do this they will start blocking the slicehost IPs. To be successful you need to have * IP usage distributed over a wide range * private distribution of proxy details * ability to switch to a new proxy when your current one is blocked Tor tries to accomplish most of this, but from the OP's post it appears that it is being effectively blocked, either by watching Tor entry points or by packet inspection.

siculars 16y ago

I've said this in other China related threads but I think China will just end up black-holing themselves.

jacquesm 16y ago
And risk a huge hit to their economy?

friendstock 16y ago

move to Taiwan?

elai 16y ago
Moving to taiwan/hk/macau and taking cheap flights to the mainland could be a good alternative.

braindead_in 16y ago

There seems to be a great market DPI and other "security" focused technologies. You can always sell such products to Governments. That being said, I find it hard to believe that the internet can be censored and regulated. It just takes too much time and effort to be worth it. Whatever the technology used, there will always be workarounds. There is no such thing as foolproof technology. More and more its seems like a big con. The Government wanted it and some smart guy told them it can be done. He must be making a lot of money now.

hga 16y ago
The ruling class of the PRC is currently willing to keep power by any means necessary. I'm hesitant to bet against a ruling class while it still maintains its own Gulag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai) and gets 65% of the country's organs for transplant from those it executes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%...). Yes, someday it will likely all come tumbling down, although I think that history shows that tends to happen when the ruling class loses the will to engage in such extremes. Or if its own history is any guide it might split apart again. But in the meanwhile they clearly think its worth the time and effort. And little mammals like us startup types need to be careful to avoid getting trampled underfoot.
- jhancock 16y ago
  Why does it have to come tumbling down? Can't you see a way forward where things improve without violence? There isn't one ruling class. I've seen government power change several times in Shanghai and at the national level over 10 years. You sound very pessimistic. What are doing to make the world a better place? Here are a few suggestions: * If you are a Chinese national, go home and become a member of the party, vote, and get involved in making your country better. * If you have a method to fix one of the many problem in China (pollution, energy, etc.) you should go show it to the person in the Chinese gov that handles such policy. If you've got a great solution, I can get you touch with people that will listen.

rubyrescue 16y ago

i've got a proxy or two you can use in the states, email me.

garply 16y ago

dublinclontarf, I live in and run a business in China. I solve my problems with a VPN. I find the GFW an annoyance, but not a huge one. It mostly just means my connection is slower when I access certain sites. Do you live in Beijing? I'd be happy to meet up with you if you're in the area.

dublinclontarf 16y ago
S(Gl)adly I don't live in Beijing, but Nanchang, it's a developing city in the south, Jiangxi province. Nothing like a startup hub here but the cost of living is far below that of Beijing.
fuckingchina 16y ago
I live in Beijing, post away
- vorg 16y ago
  You mean: "Jingapore"

elai 16y ago

There are so many things that will require us dollars, euros, whatever over credit cards for your business anyway, so get a card that can do currency exchange anyway?

deleted 16y ago

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crazydiamond 16y ago

Sorry to hear this. Can't you move out ? Why China - or is there no option. Can you not split some work with another Asian country - India for example ?

geek_silk 16y ago

china is a f*ing country

juvenn 16y ago
Please clarify, it's the government, not all Chinese people, who can be as friendly and kindly as every faithful human on the earth.
- geek_silk 16y ago
  Yaa i am talking about government, not Chinese people. I know people are good, hard working.
- vorg 16y ago
  The government is made up of people. After living in China for a while, you soon find some Chinese people are friendly to your face, but are monitoring your emails thru your ISP, or tracking your movements around the city, or arranging for a breakin at your apartment. And these are young Chinese, just doing what their seniors showed them. Young Chinese don't have the concept in their minds that internet blocking harms innovation, and will do the same in government when they replace their elders.

simonjoe 16y ago

Move away from china. There's nothing for us there.

p0larboy 16y ago

dude i'm in china too.. Freegate for the win

jhancock 16y ago

You simply need someone to give you SSH access to a server outside China. Setup a SOCKS proxy through SSH and you can get anywhere you want. Using some SaaS from inside China can be a problem (even with your SSH tunnel) due to latency and bandwidth. Find other tools. Folks have been building Internet companies for quite some time without needing cool JavaScript SaaS collaborative cloud thingies.

jacquesm 16y ago
Already done. I gave him an account on one of my machines, it's up and running.

mkramlich 16y ago

I think it's your fault for choosing to move to China then starting a web business that needs US access. It was very well known what China was like with respect to the web before you did this. It's a bit like moving to the North Pole to start a beach resort then complaining about how cold it is, all the snow, etc.

vorg 16y ago
In fact China gradually liberalized the internet in the months and years leading up to the Aug 2008 Olympics, and there was virtually no blocking from Aug 2008 to March 2009. Many foreigners here thought the Chinese had seen some sense. But then the restrictions started piling on. The ones I noticed: Youtube in March 2009, Blogspot in May 2009, Google Groups around Nov 2009.

fuckingchina 16y ago

I also run a web company in Beijing, and feel your pain. Quite simply things like google groups which help in work, and access to coding/design blogs and material/advice. It's a fucking nightmare and pisses me off to no end. I wake up, and click through HN feeds and 30% of them don't work. Even with a proxy you have to connect which might mess with your other settings, refresh, links come in slow. Then you need to disconnect since most VPN's tunnel ALL traffic via their servers. You are also logged off MSN so any conversations go missing. China is like IE6. Only worse.

Super74 16y ago

As I write this I too am having to go through a VPN to access the world. Even when it works properly, I constantly have to "play the VPN game." I really don't have the time to list out every item from jhancock that I disagree with, but pretty much all of them made me grimace. And I find it poignant that he no longer lives here. I too live in Shanghai and have for the past 5 years. I came here looking for another view on life and to see what all the media fuss was about. Don't get me wrong, I love the food, the excitement of living in a foreign country, have a wonderful chinese wife and in-laws and now take the good with the bad. But I now see why the US is #1 in many areas and continues to bring positivity to the world, for the most part. I fully understand why millions of people attempt to immigrate to the US every year. Clean water, clean air, freedom to buy property, move where you like and a legal system that can be counted on. Nothing is perfect and there are exceptions, but China is a land with no law and it really never was. What the emperor wanted, he got. Contracts mean nothing, police cannot be counted on for much, other than brokering bribes between parties on the street and judges feel if you are in front of them, you did something wrong, regardless of the situation. I have run my own business as well, legally, and have seen actions on part of my partners and customers that have blown my mind. The scams and lies now make me smile and I take them as lessons on what a person can do. It is the wild west over here. As for the internet service, forget about it. Without SLAs, your provider is obligated to give you nothing. Either pay or they turn off your service. My home service is 150RMB/ month, my office, 2500RMB/ month because I am in an office building and they think we can afford more. My home service works above and beyond my best day in the office. IP also means nothing, so the West continues to get raped over anything that might bring a profit from SW to design to web 2.0 opportunities. It's about block and copy and we are letting them step all over the WTO guidelines. Cisco? MS? Those sell-outs? They built the great firewall! I can tell you, they have not made more money than they have invested, but they will never admit it. Everyones' hope to finally make a buck someday in the future over here. The dream of any foreign company.....that never comes. Ask Grumman. Ask Pepsi. Ask GM with their 49/50 joint venture. The air smells, the water putrid and cars drive on the sidewalk. Oh, and what is a red light? A color. And this is in their greatest international city. The rest of the country dives into the 18th century. I have been from top to bottom. US creativity and ingenuity in technologies, film, music , popular trends, fashion, social improvements were all built on a legal system that has lasted over 200 years and continues to roll with the punches. China? The CCP just hit 60 and they still don't know what to call themselves. Communist? Socialist? Quasi-capitalist? A little copy of all of them. That's confusion, not progress. Mark my words, we will be dealing with the worst kind of monster, an enabled one. I am talking about the CCP, not the Chinese people themselves. Know the difference. Blocking the internet is nothing, remember Tienanmen? They killed their own students and that says it all. Those leaders are still in power and are about to "elect" their children in 2012. Well, I guess I did cover most of his comments. ha! And by the way, this summer, I will be finally coming home for good and will kiss the ground of a National Park when I do.

deleted 16y ago

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jenhsun 16y ago

Here is a simple solution might help...Get a vacation out of China. Setup a VPN and done. If you love Chinese culture and freedom, you better try Taiwan. It's a republic (100 years mostly), democratic little island with Chinese traditional culture inside. I think if you want to do a startup for your future business entrance into China. Taiwan might be great for you. Although the market is small, but you can think that's an exercise/evaluation in China market. After all, you won't sacrifice your freedom and social justice. Oh, by the way, there will be a FTA (ECFA) coming up between China and Taiwan. Sooner or later there will be lots of trade activities going on between the strait.

varjag 16y ago
Another vote for Taiwan. People are friendly, the society is (mostly) free and you don't have to compromise your conscience. Food is great, diverse and safe. Granted, local driving habits are suicidal, but that not really different from the mainland. The level of technical expertise around is very high. I've been doing hardware development in Taipei, and for about any component you can source vendor's field assistance engineer within a day. The trade agreement though seems to be very heated topic there, with lots of lobbying pro and contra. But ultimately it is likely to come through.

deleted 16y ago

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xster 16y ago

+10 points for HN I don't agree with a lot of points of view here but I'm so glad it's happening here on HN rather than on Digg or something. Almost everyone who expresses their political views have been in China or does business in China rather than just repeating what fox news said. I have gained new respects for HN

Super74 16y ago

If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the "China" topic can bring an emotionally heated debate and it's great to have the platform to discuss such issues. Thanks to pg for that! Forums such as these are not as common in the rest of the world as one could naively believe. But to bring this back to dublinclontarf 's original comment, I will write my last words on the subject. As we are becoming more and more dependent on this thing called the internet, we must begin to create and offer the same types of securities, rights of access, usage and opportunities to the world, equally. Under the guidelines of free trade, like the WTO, we should have these already in place in some areas As online businesses are businesses, none the less, they should be given their due protection. By restricting internet businesses from others and controlling what can and cannot be said on them is wrong. As China grows to become more powerful and has more ability to control their internet, I can only see a darker future for the state of freedom in China. What we see now, are only examples of the type of governing and leadership in the CCP today. Human rights, free speech, social stability and environmental well-being all grow from the same tree. That tree looks to be quite unhealthy. Bottom line, you do not have the freedom to discuss what you like on the internet in China. Period. Do so and you risk anything from losing a business license or police harassment to imprisonment or worse, in extreme cases. You do not have complete access to the online businesses being created daily across the globe. These are facts. These freedoms that we take for granted in the US (I am an American) come from a basis of law and order. As I said before it is not perfect. Nothing humans create is. But from that law, we have much prosperity. the clean air comes from regulations and restrictions on wanton over-development, national parks have come from the common man fighting big business to protect something pure. By the way, even our president had to use his constitutional power to save one of the world's most precious gifts, the Grand Canyon, from the might of big business. And millions of immigrants have found a home to raise their families and prosper in their own unique ways. Governments that oppress these freedoms and deny those rights have never fully grown to become world powers and beacons of hope. They made money and won some wars, but were never considered safe havens. The problems associated with Internet and Freedom in China are merely symptoms of larger issues looming on the horizon. As we build this world wide web ever larger and stronger, we will see just how those two ideas are so intertwined.

Super74 16y ago

By the way the, VPNs of choice for China are Skydur and Freedur. Cheap and reliable.

dnsworks 16y ago

The common theme about doing business in China is that China is very adept at making sure that money invested into China never, ever leaves the great financial wall of China.

seanlinmt 16y ago

It will always be an unending battle between hackers and the 'filterers'. Actually, I wonder if there's another motive behind the filtering. I reckon by blocking access to certain foreign sites, it is actually giving opportunities to the locals to come up with their own home-brewed version of the service. The government is helping you kill off foreign competition. Maybe it should be a case of "when there's a big problem, there's a big opportunity."

theprodigy 16y ago

I am well schooled in foreign policy, political and economic strategy. People have to realize that at this point in time China can't have completely free informational channels, as we enjoy here in America. You have millions of rural uneducated people in china that if give the right motivation can destabalize the country. To prevent that destabalization from happening you have to control informational channels and the information being delivered on it, especially when China is going through a transitional period. At the macro level on of the biggest threats to globalization is the integration of China into the global system.

nfriedly 16y ago

How much does a US-based VPN service cost? What would be a reasonable price? If any China-based hackers are interested, I'd consider setting one up for a price on the short side of fair.