5 ms·

4.0GPA, violin/piano, wanting to become doctor/lawyer...aren't these good enough for you??? High GPA means they're diligent, focused, violin/piano implied artis

4.0GPA, violin/piano, wanting to become doctor/lawyer...aren't these good enough for you??? High GPA means they're diligent, focused, violin/piano implied artistic talent, wanting to become doctor/lawyer suggests drive and ambition. What else do you want from them??? What else do you want??? Not many American students match up I'm afraid to say.

csa 10y ago
If becoming a doctor or lawyer is the peak what you want for some of the very best students in the country, then you're aiming way too low. Some answers of people I actually know were: - conduct bleeding edge genetics research - develop bespoke computer-based learning tools for schools (ones that were backed by amazing data and met the schools' sometimes overly specific legal requirements) - influence directly and indirectly policy and laws related to the Internet (e.g, as a consultant to lawmakers, a professional witness, etc.) While I realize that these examples are perhaps not the norm, it is not uncommon to move the needle in some field in some way for a high school or college student. Most people that age simply don't think big enough. Even if applicants don't demonstrate these characteristics in their application, it's usually enough to show that they have some potential and/or desire to do these sorts of things.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > Most people that age simply don't think big enough. I think really big, I believe. The problem is: I am not the kind of charismatic personality that is able to convince fellows to participate (friends would rather describe me as "brilliant scientist who tends to polarizes (in both positive and negative sense of the word) people"); so I am rather completely on my own - and the day only has 24 hours. :-( EDIT: And what about people who honestly say that they are open to such ambitious projects but honestly admit that they first have to learn the ropes and if they get to a sufficiently high skill level, they will think about such ambitious question (in other words: It makes no sense thinking about these questions as long as you don't have the skills to work on them).
  - csa 10y ago
    - Charisma is a useful thing. It can be developed. - If you haven't already, read more about Aaron Swartz. He was good or became good at persuasion. - If you are "on your own", then you might just be wrong-minded or maybe just a poor communicator. The scope of what is possible on a figurative island is really small (in most fields) compared to what can be done by a group/team. Persuasion, communication, and leadership are high value-add skills. It might be prudent to learn about them and practice them. - Ambitious projects are fine. Needing to develop skills is fine. Focus on taking small steps that you can actually take and succeed in to show that you are moving in an interesting direction. Read the PG essay "startup = growth, specifically the section on compass. He talks about hill climbing and local maxima in an interesting way. Work your way up the hill of good ideas gradually -- don't try to take a helicopter to the summit. - I don't know what space you're working in, but there are almost always small neglected spaces in the sciences that will welcome a young no-name to do meaningful gruntwork that no grant-writing professional scientist can afford to do. Do this work, embrace it, and publish it. You will be loved.
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      > If you are "on your own", then you might just be wrong-minded or maybe just a poor communicator. I would not consider myself as not a poor communicator per se - people say my slide presentations are really great. It's rather that I really don't understand how other people work. > Persuasion, communication, and leadership are high value-add skills. It might be prudent to learn about them and practice them. I surely already read a lot more on this topic than most "good leaders" have. Of no avail (?). I try to convince people all the time to join my projects - of no avail. People tell me the way to get better in leadership, communication, ... is tro practise more (IMHO a rather outlandish advice). I try it all the time - of no avail. I often cannot even imagine how other people think (and I am not able to reverse engineer based on their behavior what their inner thoughts might be). I typically have to go completely against my feelings and gut insticts when talking about or understanding feeling. But treating other people how I want to be treated is often a recipe for doom. > I don't know what space you're working in, but there are almost always small neglected spaces in the sciences that will welcome a young no-name to do meaningful gruntwork that no grant-writing professional scientist can afford to do. Do this work, embrace it, and publish it. You will be loved. I already do this in some sense (doing PhD on some very theoretical questions in some area of applied mathematics that few people on the world actually care about - still the questions are very exciting :-) ). The problem is that I have good reasons to believe that my days in science are numbered - and in the meantime I tend to believe that this might actually not be the worst thing, since how science is organized is IMHO broken in far too many ways and I believe I have found a potential secret emergency exit where I might work afterwards.
crispyambulance 10y ago
I don't want anything. I just happen to know an admissions officer at an elite university. The dire tone of your question "What else do you want from them???" really needs to be put into perspective. If you want to get upset about unfairness, look first at the admission of children of alumni and big money donors, look at promising students from disadvantaged situations losing out to students that went to "feeder-schools" where their parents paid 20K+/year since first grade for tuition. College admissions is more complicated than a GPA and a few checkboxes at ultra-competitive schools.
inimino 10y ago
> High GPA means they're diligent, focused No, it means their parents and teachers scheduled their every waking minute and forced them to study. > violin/piano implied artistic talent No. The parents said they had to study it, nolens volens. Showing up for three years of violin classes you hate does not show talent. > wanting to become doctor/lawyer suggests drive and ambition Yes, their parents' drive and their parents' ambition.

csa 10y ago

If becoming a doctor or lawyer is the peak what you want for some of the very best students in the country, then you're aiming way too low. Some answers of people I actually know were: - conduct bleeding edge genetics research - develop bespoke computer-based learning tools for schools (ones that were backed by amazing data and met the schools' sometimes overly specific legal requirements) - influence directly and indirectly policy and laws related to the Internet (e.g, as a consultant to lawmakers, a professional witness, etc.) While I realize that these examples are perhaps not the norm, it is not uncommon to move the needle in some field in some way for a high school or college student. Most people that age simply don't think big enough. Even if applicants don't demonstrate these characteristics in their application, it's usually enough to show that they have some potential and/or desire to do these sorts of things.

wolfgke 10y ago
> Most people that age simply don't think big enough. I think really big, I believe. The problem is: I am not the kind of charismatic personality that is able to convince fellows to participate (friends would rather describe me as "brilliant scientist who tends to polarizes (in both positive and negative sense of the word) people"); so I am rather completely on my own - and the day only has 24 hours. :-( EDIT: And what about people who honestly say that they are open to such ambitious projects but honestly admit that they first have to learn the ropes and if they get to a sufficiently high skill level, they will think about such ambitious question (in other words: It makes no sense thinking about these questions as long as you don't have the skills to work on them).
- csa 10y ago
  - Charisma is a useful thing. It can be developed. - If you haven't already, read more about Aaron Swartz. He was good or became good at persuasion. - If you are "on your own", then you might just be wrong-minded or maybe just a poor communicator. The scope of what is possible on a figurative island is really small (in most fields) compared to what can be done by a group/team. Persuasion, communication, and leadership are high value-add skills. It might be prudent to learn about them and practice them. - Ambitious projects are fine. Needing to develop skills is fine. Focus on taking small steps that you can actually take and succeed in to show that you are moving in an interesting direction. Read the PG essay "startup = growth, specifically the section on compass. He talks about hill climbing and local maxima in an interesting way. Work your way up the hill of good ideas gradually -- don't try to take a helicopter to the summit. - I don't know what space you're working in, but there are almost always small neglected spaces in the sciences that will welcome a young no-name to do meaningful gruntwork that no grant-writing professional scientist can afford to do. Do this work, embrace it, and publish it. You will be loved.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > If you are "on your own", then you might just be wrong-minded or maybe just a poor communicator. I would not consider myself as not a poor communicator per se - people say my slide presentations are really great. It's rather that I really don't understand how other people work. > Persuasion, communication, and leadership are high value-add skills. It might be prudent to learn about them and practice them. I surely already read a lot more on this topic than most "good leaders" have. Of no avail (?). I try to convince people all the time to join my projects - of no avail. People tell me the way to get better in leadership, communication, ... is tro practise more (IMHO a rather outlandish advice). I try it all the time - of no avail. I often cannot even imagine how other people think (and I am not able to reverse engineer based on their behavior what their inner thoughts might be). I typically have to go completely against my feelings and gut insticts when talking about or understanding feeling. But treating other people how I want to be treated is often a recipe for doom. > I don't know what space you're working in, but there are almost always small neglected spaces in the sciences that will welcome a young no-name to do meaningful gruntwork that no grant-writing professional scientist can afford to do. Do this work, embrace it, and publish it. You will be loved. I already do this in some sense (doing PhD on some very theoretical questions in some area of applied mathematics that few people on the world actually care about - still the questions are very exciting :-) ). The problem is that I have good reasons to believe that my days in science are numbered - and in the meantime I tend to believe that this might actually not be the worst thing, since how science is organized is IMHO broken in far too many ways and I believe I have found a potential secret emergency exit where I might work afterwards.

crispyambulance 10y ago

I don't want anything. I just happen to know an admissions officer at an elite university. The dire tone of your question "What else do you want from them???" really needs to be put into perspective. If you want to get upset about unfairness, look first at the admission of children of alumni and big money donors, look at promising students from disadvantaged situations losing out to students that went to "feeder-schools" where their parents paid 20K+/year since first grade for tuition. College admissions is more complicated than a GPA and a few checkboxes at ultra-competitive schools.

inimino 10y ago

> High GPA means they're diligent, focused No, it means their parents and teachers scheduled their every waking minute and forced them to study. > violin/piano implied artistic talent No. The parents said they had to study it, nolens volens. Showing up for three years of violin classes you hate does not show talent. > wanting to become doctor/lawyer suggests drive and ambition Yes, their parents' drive and their parents' ambition.