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>I don't understand how people who can understand and believe in things like quantum and multiple realities think that the only outcomes our world are strictly

>I don't understand how people who can understand and believe in things like quantum and multiple realities think that the only outcomes our world are strictly binary: Nazism or Progressive Liberalism. That's a bit of a strawman, I think; no-one I've heard of, who thinks Trump is a fascist, arrived at that conclusion by saying "well he's not a progressive liberal so all that's left is nazi". It's been more like (whether correct or not) "his policies and views are similar to the historical policies and views associated with fascism, so he could be a fascist."

guildwriter 10y ago
That's fair, let me go into more detail. I know a lot of people who fervently believe that Trump is the second coming of Hitler. If you dig around on Twitter it won't be long before you find this sentiment practically everywhere. It's not "could be a fascist" it is "actually is a fascist and we need to actively resist". This is not unique to Donald Trump. W Bush is the most recent example where Bush=Hitler was practically a slogan for liberals. Again, people claimed the same thing. "Policies and views are similar therefore" and went straight for the extremes. They didn't go for the benefit of the doubt at all, despite there being a lot of evidence that Bush was in no way at all a Nazi. I think it's fair to argue that it's a tenant of faith for liberals that all conservatives hate gays, hate minorities, hate women, etc. That these people exist in the Republican party is impossible to deny. To tar and feather the entire Republican party as this way is how we get to this binary world view. As far as Donald Trump is concerned, I think if you've really dug into Donald Trump and done your homework on him, I think that calling him a fascist is grossly unfair. Let's take this article from 2000: http://www.advocate.com/election/2015/9/28/read-donald-trumps-advocate-interview-where-he-defends-gays-mexicans http://www.advocate.com/election/2015/9/28/read-donald-trump... "Do you think gay people should be allowed to serve in the military?" "Yes, if a gay person can be a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher or take another position of responsibility, why can't they serve this country in the military? “Don’t ask, don’t tell” has clearly failed. Gay people serve effectively in the military in a number of European countries. There is no reason why they can’t serve in the United States. Frankly, the state of our military is a wreck. Military pay is a joke, military benefits are ridiculous, and we can’t attract the kind of quality people we need to have an effective fighting force. The Pentagon is wasting millions on weapons they don’t need instead of focusing on the military needs in the changing world situation. The truth is, our nation defense is in the weakest state since Pearl Harbor. I favor a total reorganization of all branches of our military, and I would address the gay question more forthrightly within that reorganization." "Are you running just to beat Pat Buchanan?" "I used to like Pat. I was on Crossfire with him. I thought he was a nice guy. Then I read the things he had written about Hitler, Jews, blacks, gays, and Mexicans. I mean, I think it’s disgusting. That speech he made at the ’92 Republican convention was a disaster. He wants to divide Americans. Clearly, he has a love affair with Adolf Hitler, and that’s sick. Buchanan actually said gay people had chosen “satan[ism] and suicide.” Now he says he welcomes gay people into his campaign. The guy is a hypocrite." Note that these views are not in a vaccuum. If you go back and read his views before the 2016 election, you get the picture of a Donald Trump who reads like a liberal. Nothing like a fascist at all. And yet many people have practically jumped at characterizing Trump as the second coming of Nazi Germany. The reasons why are a much longer discussion. I'm not saying any of this disproves that he is a Nazi. I'm saying that this decreases the likelihood that it is true. This is why I say people are expressing a binary worldview. From what I can see, many are not expressing that there could be a third possibility. Or fourth. Or a myriad of options.
- edmccard 10y ago
  >I think it's fair to argue that it's a tenant of faith for liberals that all conservatives hate gays, hate minorities, hate women, etc. Well, to paraphrase your next sentence: "that these people exist in the Democratic party is impossible to deny, to tar and feather the entire Democratic party as this way is how we get to the binary world view." In particular, I am a liberal in a rural Pennsylvania county that voted 75% for Trump, and I know that my conservative neighbors do not hate gays, minorities, and women. (Most people I've talked to were responsive to his position on coal mining; I'm not sure what will happen in four years if those jobs don't come back.) >This is why I say people are expressing a binary worldview. From what I can see, many are not expressing that there could be a third possibility. Or fourth. Or a myriad of options. You mentioned Twitter; if Trump being a Nazi is one bad option, and there are x-1 other good options, I think it's only natural that the kind of people who like to tweet are going to tweet about what they think is the most dangerous one.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    I'm going to diverge from the topic, but do you really think those jobs will return given the cheapness now of solar and natural gas? The market without strings won't revive coal.
    - edmccard 10y ago
      >do you really think those jobs will return given the cheapness now of solar and natural gas? In the county and state where I live (Somerset County, PA) the majority of coal production is metallurgical, so we are more sensitive to the demand for steel than to the price of natural gas. That demand is on an uptick, so there are 4 new mines planned for PA (2 in my county)[1]. But there was a similar spike in demand back in 2008, which didn't end up making much of an impact on employment. For example, PBS coals, whose headquarters I drive past every day, had ~600 employees in 2008 when they were bought by Severstal (a Russian steel company), who planned on adding ~150 more jobs.[2] In 2014 they were acquired by Corsa Coals (from Canada), who laid off about 130 miners in 2015.[3] TLDR: no I don't think those jobs will return. [1] http://www.coalage.com/news/latest/5510-4-new-met-mines-planned-for-pennsylvania.html http://www.coalage.com/news/latest/5510-4-new-met-mines-plan... [2] http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1531216/russian_steelmaker_to_buy_pbs_coals_in_somerset/ http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1531216/russian_steelm... [3] http://triblive.com/business/headlines/7530395-74/mines-coal-corsa http://triblive.com/business/headlines/7530395-74/mines-coal...
thweerty 10y ago
Trump was a master manipulator. He barely had a policy dirrction. Ironically it's conservatism that loses in the long run. Be in no doubt that such missteps will form the hadokens by which conservatism's will be k.o ed by the libs.
- gspetr 10y ago
  Sure. All the KO's in the House[0] Senate[1] and gubernatorial[2] elections have them shaking in their boots. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Represe... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections%2C_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_gubernatorial_elections,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_gubernatorial_el... Have you seen the 2018 Senate elections map in particular?

guildwriter 10y ago

That's fair, let me go into more detail. I know a lot of people who fervently believe that Trump is the second coming of Hitler. If you dig around on Twitter it won't be long before you find this sentiment practically everywhere. It's not "could be a fascist" it is "actually is a fascist and we need to actively resist". This is not unique to Donald Trump. W Bush is the most recent example where Bush=Hitler was practically a slogan for liberals. Again, people claimed the same thing. "Policies and views are similar therefore" and went straight for the extremes. They didn't go for the benefit of the doubt at all, despite there being a lot of evidence that Bush was in no way at all a Nazi. I think it's fair to argue that it's a tenant of faith for liberals that all conservatives hate gays, hate minorities, hate women, etc. That these people exist in the Republican party is impossible to deny. To tar and feather the entire Republican party as this way is how we get to this binary world view. As far as Donald Trump is concerned, I think if you've really dug into Donald Trump and done your homework on him, I think that calling him a fascist is grossly unfair. Let's take this article from 2000: http://www.advocate.com/election/2015/9/28/read-donald-trumps-advocate-interview-where-he-defends-gays-mexicans http://www.advocate.com/election/2015/9/28/read-donald-trump... "Do you think gay people should be allowed to serve in the military?" "Yes, if a gay person can be a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher or take another position of responsibility, why can't they serve this country in the military? “Don’t ask, don’t tell” has clearly failed. Gay people serve effectively in the military in a number of European countries. There is no reason why they can’t serve in the United States. Frankly, the state of our military is a wreck. Military pay is a joke, military benefits are ridiculous, and we can’t attract the kind of quality people we need to have an effective fighting force. The Pentagon is wasting millions on weapons they don’t need instead of focusing on the military needs in the changing world situation. The truth is, our nation defense is in the weakest state since Pearl Harbor. I favor a total reorganization of all branches of our military, and I would address the gay question more forthrightly within that reorganization." "Are you running just to beat Pat Buchanan?" "I used to like Pat. I was on Crossfire with him. I thought he was a nice guy. Then I read the things he had written about Hitler, Jews, blacks, gays, and Mexicans. I mean, I think it’s disgusting. That speech he made at the ’92 Republican convention was a disaster. He wants to divide Americans. Clearly, he has a love affair with Adolf Hitler, and that’s sick. Buchanan actually said gay people had chosen “satan[ism] and suicide.” Now he says he welcomes gay people into his campaign. The guy is a hypocrite." Note that these views are not in a vaccuum. If you go back and read his views before the 2016 election, you get the picture of a Donald Trump who reads like a liberal. Nothing like a fascist at all. And yet many people have practically jumped at characterizing Trump as the second coming of Nazi Germany. The reasons why are a much longer discussion. I'm not saying any of this disproves that he is a Nazi. I'm saying that this decreases the likelihood that it is true. This is why I say people are expressing a binary worldview. From what I can see, many are not expressing that there could be a third possibility. Or fourth. Or a myriad of options.

edmccard 10y ago
>I think it's fair to argue that it's a tenant of faith for liberals that all conservatives hate gays, hate minorities, hate women, etc. Well, to paraphrase your next sentence: "that these people exist in the Democratic party is impossible to deny, to tar and feather the entire Democratic party as this way is how we get to the binary world view." In particular, I am a liberal in a rural Pennsylvania county that voted 75% for Trump, and I know that my conservative neighbors do not hate gays, minorities, and women. (Most people I've talked to were responsive to his position on coal mining; I'm not sure what will happen in four years if those jobs don't come back.) >This is why I say people are expressing a binary worldview. From what I can see, many are not expressing that there could be a third possibility. Or fourth. Or a myriad of options. You mentioned Twitter; if Trump being a Nazi is one bad option, and there are x-1 other good options, I think it's only natural that the kind of people who like to tweet are going to tweet about what they think is the most dangerous one.
- noobermin 10y ago
  I'm going to diverge from the topic, but do you really think those jobs will return given the cheapness now of solar and natural gas? The market without strings won't revive coal.
  - edmccard 10y ago
    >do you really think those jobs will return given the cheapness now of solar and natural gas? In the county and state where I live (Somerset County, PA) the majority of coal production is metallurgical, so we are more sensitive to the demand for steel than to the price of natural gas. That demand is on an uptick, so there are 4 new mines planned for PA (2 in my county)[1]. But there was a similar spike in demand back in 2008, which didn't end up making much of an impact on employment. For example, PBS coals, whose headquarters I drive past every day, had ~600 employees in 2008 when they were bought by Severstal (a Russian steel company), who planned on adding ~150 more jobs.[2] In 2014 they were acquired by Corsa Coals (from Canada), who laid off about 130 miners in 2015.[3] TLDR: no I don't think those jobs will return. [1] http://www.coalage.com/news/latest/5510-4-new-met-mines-planned-for-pennsylvania.html http://www.coalage.com/news/latest/5510-4-new-met-mines-plan... [2] http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1531216/russian_steelmaker_to_buy_pbs_coals_in_somerset/ http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1531216/russian_steelm... [3] http://triblive.com/business/headlines/7530395-74/mines-coal-corsa http://triblive.com/business/headlines/7530395-74/mines-coal...

thweerty 10y ago

Trump was a master manipulator. He barely had a policy dirrction. Ironically it's conservatism that loses in the long run. Be in no doubt that such missteps will form the hadokens by which conservatism's will be k.o ed by the libs.

gspetr 10y ago
Sure. All the KO's in the House[0] Senate[1] and gubernatorial[2] elections have them shaking in their boots. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Represe... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections%2C_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_gubernatorial_elections,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_gubernatorial_el... Have you seen the 2018 Senate elections map in particular?