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The US government can't make all of the real scientists out there just disappear. Climate models have an impact on many different fields of research and unless

by wybiral 10y ago

The US government can't make all of the real scientists out there just disappear. Climate models have an impact on many different fields of research and unless there's a total shutdown of science (which seems absurd) those people and facts will still be there. There's a portion of the population who's wanted to deny climate change for a long time and I believe they'll accept the alt-facts to justify their position. But I'm skeptical about the efficacy of successfully silencing existing news groups and the majority of scientists. Has anything like that ever been successful in the connected world? That being said, we do absolutely need to make protect our internet from censorship.

sandworm101 10y ago
Go look at any list of recently-cancelled television shows. You will be shocked at the number of them that you liked, but have now slipped from your mind. Public memory is fickle and it is very possible to remove even widespread facts. Example: a few years back a uk submarine was stuck high aground. As the tide went out the prop was exposed. I and a billion other people saw it live on bbc news. (Blue poly fins, at least 10 inside a housing). Good luck trying to find that image now. It has been sucessfully removed. The internet isnt the great memory well we all want it to be. With effort, facts can be changed, events scrubbed.
- wybiral 10y ago
  > Go look at any list of recently-cancelled television shows. You will be shocked at the number of them that you liked, but have now slipped from your mind. Public memory is fickle and it is very possible to remove even widespread facts. Change and censorship aren't synonymous and I have no expectation that anything will last forever. But it's easier to ignore and forget about something like a television show than something like global climate change. My post was in relation to the mass censorship required to create a world like the parent post described. As for your submarine, that's interesting. Was it this one? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11605365 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-116053... I'm not doubting the ability to censor things, especially before they become widespread, but climate change will be much harder because it's already a part of our vocabulary.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    Id say that mass-censorship isnt the goal. You only have to keep a small mumber of influential americans distracted. That group (the perhaps 25% who have both a vote and money/time to donate), they dictate national policy. Everyone else can scream all they want to no end. The internet allows for such focused censorship.
    - facetube 10y ago
      Even fewer if you have a gerrymandered election system. Steve Bannon, now senior advisor to Trump, is on the board of Cambridge Analytica, a company that built (and presumably enabled the exploitation of) psychological profiles to maximize shares/distribution of content on social media, targeting specific geographic clusters: 1: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/the-british-data-crunchers-who-say-they-helped-donald-trump-to-win/ http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/the-british-data-cruncher... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica 3: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/04/google-democracy-truth-internet-search-facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/04/google-de... The Trump campaign paid this group millions of dollars beginning in the summer of 2016.
- jcranmer 10y ago
  Is http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/49616000/jpg/_49616232_submarineclose_rmiller_304.jpg http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/49616000/jpg/_... what you are referring to? Second result for me when searching Google Image Search for "bbc uk stuck submarine."
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    But find the image of the prop half out of the water. Thats the super-secret thing they were so embarrased about. Those images have been surgically removed from the internet. The full story involves a dilema between forcing the boat off the ground, and risk stripping its super-secret rubber coatings that might then be collected by russian agents, or letting the tide go out and expose the prop to the media.
    - wybiral 10y ago
      Still, I'd expect media companies to be more likely to comply with orders to remove military secrets than to remove scientific data. But you're right, censorship happens. How do we prevent it?
      - ethbro 10y ago
        The UK in particular doesn't seem to have ever been overly enamoured with the idea of an intrinsic right to unlimited free speech. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_Kin...
    - dghughes 10y ago
      The Canadian government bought some used subs from the UK 10 or 15 years ago. One of the subs had a huge dent and I mean Oldsmobile sized. The Brits seem to have a tough time navigating their subs.
- jstanley 10y ago
  Interesting about the propellor of HMS Astute. I found this page: http://bubbleheads.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/hms-astute-aground.html http://bubbleheads.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/hms-astute-aground... which links to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p2LuvoXKmU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p2LuvoXKmU which is apparently not available. I'd be interested to see if anyone can drag up an archive of that video. EDIT: Might be this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgX4OYIFl-c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgX4OYIFl-c but doesn't contain any view of the propellor.
- danbruc 10y ago
  According to Wikipedia Astute-class submarines use a hydrojet [1] instead of a classical propeller. That explains the unusual encased look. Here is an image [2] with the propulsion system hidden behind some fabric covers but still giving away the general shape. And this thread [3] has a few images of a hydrojet of a Sowjet Kilo-class submarine. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute-class_submarine#Propulsion_and_general_specifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute-class_submarine#Propuls... [2] http://www.shipwrecklog.com/log/2010/10/h-m-s-astute-aground/ http://www.shipwrecklog.com/log/2010/10/h-m-s-astute-aground... [3] http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=29393 http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=29393
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    The new tech seems to be many more but thinner blades made out of composite material. It is so secret because if you know the surface area of the blades you can work out the availible horsepower, speeds, and likely frequencies emitted. So they are covered to hide then even from crew. Many people working inside subs dont know what props actually look like. Propulsion tech was part of the accident because, i believe, these subs do not have rudders. They vector thrust like a jetski and therefore have issues when moving slowly.
    - danbruc 10y ago
      I didn't even know that submarines no longer use classical propellers. I was surprised when I read it on Wikipedia and then again when I noticed that this is not unique to the Astate-class while trying to find images of hydrojet submarines. You can see this in the way I worded my comment, I guess it was pretty obvious to you.
switchbak 10y ago
The previous Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper did just this, muzzling or shutting down essentially any form of scientific research that was politically inconvenient. The chilling effect can be very real, and I think you'd be surprised how quickly it can take hold. And Harper was an absolute pussycat compared to Trump.

by wybiral 10y ago

sandworm101 10y ago

Go look at any list of recently-cancelled television shows. You will be shocked at the number of them that you liked, but have now slipped from your mind. Public memory is fickle and it is very possible to remove even widespread facts. Example: a few years back a uk submarine was stuck high aground. As the tide went out the prop was exposed. I and a billion other people saw it live on bbc news. (Blue poly fins, at least 10 inside a housing). Good luck trying to find that image now. It has been sucessfully removed. The internet isnt the great memory well we all want it to be. With effort, facts can be changed, events scrubbed.

wybiral 10y ago
> Go look at any list of recently-cancelled television shows. You will be shocked at the number of them that you liked, but have now slipped from your mind. Public memory is fickle and it is very possible to remove even widespread facts. Change and censorship aren't synonymous and I have no expectation that anything will last forever. But it's easier to ignore and forget about something like a television show than something like global climate change. My post was in relation to the mass censorship required to create a world like the parent post described. As for your submarine, that's interesting. Was it this one? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11605365 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-116053... I'm not doubting the ability to censor things, especially before they become widespread, but climate change will be much harder because it's already a part of our vocabulary.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  Id say that mass-censorship isnt the goal. You only have to keep a small mumber of influential americans distracted. That group (the perhaps 25% who have both a vote and money/time to donate), they dictate national policy. Everyone else can scream all they want to no end. The internet allows for such focused censorship.
  - facetube 10y ago
    Even fewer if you have a gerrymandered election system. Steve Bannon, now senior advisor to Trump, is on the board of Cambridge Analytica, a company that built (and presumably enabled the exploitation of) psychological profiles to maximize shares/distribution of content on social media, targeting specific geographic clusters: 1: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/the-british-data-crunchers-who-say-they-helped-donald-trump-to-win/ http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/the-british-data-cruncher... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica 3: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/04/google-democracy-truth-internet-search-facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/04/google-de... The Trump campaign paid this group millions of dollars beginning in the summer of 2016.
jcranmer 10y ago
Is http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/49616000/jpg/_49616232_submarineclose_rmiller_304.jpg http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/49616000/jpg/_... what you are referring to? Second result for me when searching Google Image Search for "bbc uk stuck submarine."
- sandworm101 10y ago
  But find the image of the prop half out of the water. Thats the super-secret thing they were so embarrased about. Those images have been surgically removed from the internet. The full story involves a dilema between forcing the boat off the ground, and risk stripping its super-secret rubber coatings that might then be collected by russian agents, or letting the tide go out and expose the prop to the media.
  - wybiral 10y ago
    Still, I'd expect media companies to be more likely to comply with orders to remove military secrets than to remove scientific data. But you're right, censorship happens. How do we prevent it?
    - ethbro 10y ago
      The UK in particular doesn't seem to have ever been overly enamoured with the idea of an intrinsic right to unlimited free speech. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_Kin...
  - dghughes 10y ago
    The Canadian government bought some used subs from the UK 10 or 15 years ago. One of the subs had a huge dent and I mean Oldsmobile sized. The Brits seem to have a tough time navigating their subs.
jstanley 10y ago
Interesting about the propellor of HMS Astute. I found this page: http://bubbleheads.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/hms-astute-aground.html http://bubbleheads.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/hms-astute-aground... which links to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p2LuvoXKmU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p2LuvoXKmU which is apparently not available. I'd be interested to see if anyone can drag up an archive of that video. EDIT: Might be this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgX4OYIFl-c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgX4OYIFl-c but doesn't contain any view of the propellor.
danbruc 10y ago
According to Wikipedia Astute-class submarines use a hydrojet [1] instead of a classical propeller. That explains the unusual encased look. Here is an image [2] with the propulsion system hidden behind some fabric covers but still giving away the general shape. And this thread [3] has a few images of a hydrojet of a Sowjet Kilo-class submarine. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute-class_submarine#Propulsion_and_general_specifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute-class_submarine#Propuls... [2] http://www.shipwrecklog.com/log/2010/10/h-m-s-astute-aground/ http://www.shipwrecklog.com/log/2010/10/h-m-s-astute-aground... [3] http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=29393 http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=29393
- sandworm101 10y ago
  The new tech seems to be many more but thinner blades made out of composite material. It is so secret because if you know the surface area of the blades you can work out the availible horsepower, speeds, and likely frequencies emitted. So they are covered to hide then even from crew. Many people working inside subs dont know what props actually look like. Propulsion tech was part of the accident because, i believe, these subs do not have rudders. They vector thrust like a jetski and therefore have issues when moving slowly.
  - danbruc 10y ago
    I didn't even know that submarines no longer use classical propellers. I was surprised when I read it on Wikipedia and then again when I noticed that this is not unique to the Astate-class while trying to find images of hydrojet submarines. You can see this in the way I worded my comment, I guess it was pretty obvious to you.

switchbak 10y ago

The previous Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper did just this, muzzling or shutting down essentially any form of scientific research that was politically inconvenient. The chilling effect can be very real, and I think you'd be surprised how quickly it can take hold. And Harper was an absolute pussycat compared to Trump.