7 ms·

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite co

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or lawyer.

munin 10y ago
> and no authentic detectable motivation They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18?
- 6stringmerc 10y ago
  To get an education to facilitate a "good" job, pay my own bills, make my own decisions about free time, friendships and activities, and, most of all, not have to live with my parents. Granted, I'd had tastes of all of these growing up in a well rounded home life, but those were the values instilled in me. How I chose to get there was up to me.
- EliRivers 10y ago
  I had a real, authentic interest in my chosen degree subject. I really, genuinely wanted to know all about it. I didn't ever want a job (and I still don't want one). I really, authentically wanted to be good at it for no other purpose than the pleasure of being able to fluidly understand it and play with it.
  - oblio 10y ago
    You must be either rich or have a very frugal, possibly isolated lifestyle. Most people don't fit either of those categories.
    - EliRivers 10y ago
      I didn't say I don't have a job. I said I don't want one. It turns out that I don't want to be living rough on the streets to a greater degree than I don't want a job.
      - oblio 10y ago
        Then in that case your comment doesn't add much to the conversation, to be blunt. Most people love to do something and don't like jobs (in general, or just their jobs).
        EliRivers 10y ago
        Yet all I ever hear is how work is challenging and rewarding and people really look forwards to taking on new challenges and making a difference in the world of main street small hardware retail and how they find their job rewarding.
  - Mieaou 10y ago
    You are so fake.
    - EliRivers 10y ago
      My chosen subject was physics. It's quite common to find that physics undergrads actually want to know physics; that it's not simply a planned stepping stone to some future job. I followed up with a masters in it, and several years later did another masters, in maths, at my own expense in evenings and weekends, with the same motivation; I had been doing some mathematics, and was annoyed at how bad I was at it, and decided a masters in maths would sharpen that right up. People like me exist. We are real. We exist in the blind spots of your world, taking genuine interest in things. Learning for no other reason than that we simply want to know more. To understand more. To have a fluidity with more knowledge, more understanding. You just haven't noticed. We don't have a manifesto or a webpage because we've got more interesting things to do.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18? When I was 18 I had an authentic motivation for studying math and computer science (which I did; German's admission procedures for courses of studies are different from how it works in the USA). What I did not have was something that made me look very social, outstanding, future leader etc. I was (and still am in many senses) the kind of rebellious, cynic, scientifically brillant (at that time without any opportunity to show) nerd who finds working in science much more exciting than about anything else. P.S.: I was never the kind of person who can serve as a role model, since the only advice I can give is the ones my father gave me (he, being a working-class child, worked his way up): "There is always someone who will be better than you, but not being the second-best is failure." and "If you don't work harder than everybody around you, it is no surprise if you fail.". This is not something that people want to hear from role models - they want to hear things that are more socially compatible.
- jseliger 10y ago
  They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18? Seriously. My thoughts exactly. There are obviously some 18-year-old college students who know exactly what they want (some of them are replying), but even many of those will change their minds. When I was 18 I had no idea what I wanted to do (except perhaps get laid), but it was clear that college was "the next step." On a tangential note, this thread reminds me of writing admissions essays. "Why do you want to come to this school / program?" You can never say the obvious: "Cause it's the most prestigious (or cost-effective) school I think I might get into."
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    I still resent the colleges which used "Why do you want to come to Blah University in particular?" as an admissions prompt. For a graduate program, fine. For an undergraduate program? There are a handful of acceptable cases (Stanford makes you apply to a major), but mostly it's either "it's a good school that I hope I can get in to" or "it's a mediocre school and I need a safety for when Harvard shoots me down". These are places that let you spend 2-3 years 'undeclared', but they put on a song-and-dance about high school students having specific goals. I'm sure some of them want applicants who do have a specific reason to attend Blah, but even then there's no excuse for the usual system. You can't plan your life around Professor X at Blah, because Blah has a 15% acceptance rate and accepts among qualified students more or less at random. I remember that UPenn in particular had an essay prompt which was effectively "We're insecure, please praise us for 500 words."
    - Y201K 10y ago
      Essays for transfering are very similar: "Why do you want to come here / why did you leave your last situation?" Surely they'd like you to write about environment or purpose, but like with a first job as a kid, I think "the other place sucked / the classes weren't any good there" should suffice.
      - krackers 10y ago
        Actually I think for transferring the "why us" essay is fine, mainly because you're transferring for some specific reason and the "why us" essay just allows you to reflect on that reason and whether the new university will truly be any better than the one you're switching out of.
umanwizard 10y ago
So? If the 1000 best candidates are Asian then you should admit the 1000 Asians. I can see giving extra help to historically marginalized races at the expense of whites, but why ding Asians? They weren't responsible for racism in the US. They weren't the ones stealing resources from other people. Do correct me if I'm wrong but your post seems to amount to "a lot of Asians work hard and are smart, so let's have a quota on Asians because they're hardworking and smart in a way I find boring". By the way, as a matter of policy, it seems fine to me if people can become doctors who are smart and who only worked hard because they wanted to become doctors. When I go to the doctor I care mainly about whether they know their shit, not whether they were subjectively "well-rounded" at age 18.
- hatmatrix 10y ago
  But what is "best"? While their achievements are commendable, admitting all of them will lead to a homogeneous student body and presumably not the best outcome for the institution, its graduates, or society.
  - witty_username 10y ago
    What is wrong with a homogeneous student body? Forced diversity is AS racist as discrimination against blacks.
    - tacomonstrous 10y ago
      No, it's not. It's not even in the same universe as discrimination against blacks. I understand that the Asian-American community is a good totem for you to rally your attitudes around, but as a member of it, I'd be happier if you left us out of this hateful rhetoric.
    - pm90 10y ago
      I believe the argument is that diversity promotes creativity and makes students more open minded, since they are exposed to people (and cultures) very different from their own. Having attended both US and Indian universities, I have to say I loved the diversity at the US university; loved the opportunity to know, understand and work with people from all over the world and get to know about them and their way of life.
startupdiscuss 10y ago
And that's who I want representing me in court and diagnosing my medical conditions!
- wolfgke 10y ago
  Why don't you want people who know the laws/judgments inside out to represent you in court? The same holds for inside-out knowledge of diseases and their treatments.
  - startupdiscuss 10y ago
    That is who I want representing me. You might have misunderstood my statement.
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      OK, then I mistakenly read sarcasm into your comment. :-(
      - startupdiscuss 10y ago
        Oh yeah. Totally understandable since I and other internet denizens are sarcastic about 98% of the time, but this is one of the rare instances where I was not.
kyukyukyufan 10y ago
4.0GPA, violin/piano, wanting to become doctor/lawyer...aren't these good enough for you??? High GPA means they're diligent, focused, violin/piano implied artistic talent, wanting to become doctor/lawyer suggests drive and ambition. What else do you want from them??? What else do you want??? Not many American students match up I'm afraid to say.
- csa 10y ago
  If becoming a doctor or lawyer is the peak what you want for some of the very best students in the country, then you're aiming way too low. Some answers of people I actually know were: - conduct bleeding edge genetics research - develop bespoke computer-based learning tools for schools (ones that were backed by amazing data and met the schools' sometimes overly specific legal requirements) - influence directly and indirectly policy and laws related to the Internet (e.g, as a consultant to lawmakers, a professional witness, etc.) While I realize that these examples are perhaps not the norm, it is not uncommon to move the needle in some field in some way for a high school or college student. Most people that age simply don't think big enough. Even if applicants don't demonstrate these characteristics in their application, it's usually enough to show that they have some potential and/or desire to do these sorts of things.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > Most people that age simply don't think big enough. I think really big, I believe. The problem is: I am not the kind of charismatic personality that is able to convince fellows to participate (friends would rather describe me as "brilliant scientist who tends to polarizes (in both positive and negative sense of the word) people"); so I am rather completely on my own - and the day only has 24 hours. :-( EDIT: And what about people who honestly say that they are open to such ambitious projects but honestly admit that they first have to learn the ropes and if they get to a sufficiently high skill level, they will think about such ambitious question (in other words: It makes no sense thinking about these questions as long as you don't have the skills to work on them).
    - 10y ago

munin 10y ago

> and no authentic detectable motivation They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18?

6stringmerc 10y ago
To get an education to facilitate a "good" job, pay my own bills, make my own decisions about free time, friendships and activities, and, most of all, not have to live with my parents. Granted, I'd had tastes of all of these growing up in a well rounded home life, but those were the values instilled in me. How I chose to get there was up to me.
EliRivers 10y ago
I had a real, authentic interest in my chosen degree subject. I really, genuinely wanted to know all about it. I didn't ever want a job (and I still don't want one). I really, authentically wanted to be good at it for no other purpose than the pleasure of being able to fluidly understand it and play with it.
- oblio 10y ago
  You must be either rich or have a very frugal, possibly isolated lifestyle. Most people don't fit either of those categories.
  - EliRivers 10y ago
    I didn't say I don't have a job. I said I don't want one. It turns out that I don't want to be living rough on the streets to a greater degree than I don't want a job.
    - oblio 10y ago
      Then in that case your comment doesn't add much to the conversation, to be blunt. Most people love to do something and don't like jobs (in general, or just their jobs).
      - EliRivers 10y ago
        Yet all I ever hear is how work is challenging and rewarding and people really look forwards to taking on new challenges and making a difference in the world of main street small hardware retail and how they find their job rewarding.
- Mieaou 10y ago
  You are so fake.
  - EliRivers 10y ago
    My chosen subject was physics. It's quite common to find that physics undergrads actually want to know physics; that it's not simply a planned stepping stone to some future job. I followed up with a masters in it, and several years later did another masters, in maths, at my own expense in evenings and weekends, with the same motivation; I had been doing some mathematics, and was annoyed at how bad I was at it, and decided a masters in maths would sharpen that right up. People like me exist. We are real. We exist in the blind spots of your world, taking genuine interest in things. Learning for no other reason than that we simply want to know more. To understand more. To have a fluidity with more knowledge, more understanding. You just haven't noticed. We don't have a manifesto or a webpage because we've got more interesting things to do.
wolfgke 10y ago
> They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18? When I was 18 I had an authentic motivation for studying math and computer science (which I did; German's admission procedures for courses of studies are different from how it works in the USA). What I did not have was something that made me look very social, outstanding, future leader etc. I was (and still am in many senses) the kind of rebellious, cynic, scientifically brillant (at that time without any opportunity to show) nerd who finds working in science much more exciting than about anything else. P.S.: I was never the kind of person who can serve as a role model, since the only advice I can give is the ones my father gave me (he, being a working-class child, worked his way up): "There is always someone who will be better than you, but not being the second-best is failure." and "If you don't work harder than everybody around you, it is no surprise if you fail.". This is not something that people want to hear from role models - they want to hear things that are more socially compatible.
jseliger 10y ago
They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18? Seriously. My thoughts exactly. There are obviously some 18-year-old college students who know exactly what they want (some of them are replying), but even many of those will change their minds. When I was 18 I had no idea what I wanted to do (except perhaps get laid), but it was clear that college was "the next step." On a tangential note, this thread reminds me of writing admissions essays. "Why do you want to come to this school / program?" You can never say the obvious: "Cause it's the most prestigious (or cost-effective) school I think I might get into."
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  I still resent the colleges which used "Why do you want to come to Blah University in particular?" as an admissions prompt. For a graduate program, fine. For an undergraduate program? There are a handful of acceptable cases (Stanford makes you apply to a major), but mostly it's either "it's a good school that I hope I can get in to" or "it's a mediocre school and I need a safety for when Harvard shoots me down". These are places that let you spend 2-3 years 'undeclared', but they put on a song-and-dance about high school students having specific goals. I'm sure some of them want applicants who do have a specific reason to attend Blah, but even then there's no excuse for the usual system. You can't plan your life around Professor X at Blah, because Blah has a 15% acceptance rate and accepts among qualified students more or less at random. I remember that UPenn in particular had an essay prompt which was effectively "We're insecure, please praise us for 500 words."
  - Y201K 10y ago
    Essays for transfering are very similar: "Why do you want to come here / why did you leave your last situation?" Surely they'd like you to write about environment or purpose, but like with a first job as a kid, I think "the other place sucked / the classes weren't any good there" should suffice.
    - krackers 10y ago
      Actually I think for transferring the "why us" essay is fine, mainly because you're transferring for some specific reason and the "why us" essay just allows you to reflect on that reason and whether the new university will truly be any better than the one you're switching out of.

umanwizard 10y ago

So? If the 1000 best candidates are Asian then you should admit the 1000 Asians. I can see giving extra help to historically marginalized races at the expense of whites, but why ding Asians? They weren't responsible for racism in the US. They weren't the ones stealing resources from other people. Do correct me if I'm wrong but your post seems to amount to "a lot of Asians work hard and are smart, so let's have a quota on Asians because they're hardworking and smart in a way I find boring". By the way, as a matter of policy, it seems fine to me if people can become doctors who are smart and who only worked hard because they wanted to become doctors. When I go to the doctor I care mainly about whether they know their shit, not whether they were subjectively "well-rounded" at age 18.

hatmatrix 10y ago
But what is "best"? While their achievements are commendable, admitting all of them will lead to a homogeneous student body and presumably not the best outcome for the institution, its graduates, or society.
- witty_username 10y ago
  What is wrong with a homogeneous student body? Forced diversity is AS racist as discrimination against blacks.
  - tacomonstrous 10y ago
    No, it's not. It's not even in the same universe as discrimination against blacks. I understand that the Asian-American community is a good totem for you to rally your attitudes around, but as a member of it, I'd be happier if you left us out of this hateful rhetoric.
  - pm90 10y ago
    I believe the argument is that diversity promotes creativity and makes students more open minded, since they are exposed to people (and cultures) very different from their own. Having attended both US and Indian universities, I have to say I loved the diversity at the US university; loved the opportunity to know, understand and work with people from all over the world and get to know about them and their way of life.

startupdiscuss 10y ago

And that's who I want representing me in court and diagnosing my medical conditions!

wolfgke 10y ago
Why don't you want people who know the laws/judgments inside out to represent you in court? The same holds for inside-out knowledge of diseases and their treatments.
- startupdiscuss 10y ago
  That is who I want representing me. You might have misunderstood my statement.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    OK, then I mistakenly read sarcasm into your comment. :-(
    - startupdiscuss 10y ago
      Oh yeah. Totally understandable since I and other internet denizens are sarcastic about 98% of the time, but this is one of the rare instances where I was not.

kyukyukyufan 10y ago

4.0GPA, violin/piano, wanting to become doctor/lawyer...aren't these good enough for you??? High GPA means they're diligent, focused, violin/piano implied artistic talent, wanting to become doctor/lawyer suggests drive and ambition. What else do you want from them??? What else do you want??? Not many American students match up I'm afraid to say.

csa 10y ago
If becoming a doctor or lawyer is the peak what you want for some of the very best students in the country, then you're aiming way too low. Some answers of people I actually know were: - conduct bleeding edge genetics research - develop bespoke computer-based learning tools for schools (ones that were backed by amazing data and met the schools' sometimes overly specific legal requirements) - influence directly and indirectly policy and laws related to the Internet (e.g, as a consultant to lawmakers, a professional witness, etc.) While I realize that these examples are perhaps not the norm, it is not uncommon to move the needle in some field in some way for a high school or college student. Most people that age simply don't think big enough. Even if applicants don't demonstrate these characteristics in their application, it's usually enough to show that they have some potential and/or desire to do these sorts of things.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > Most people that age simply don't think big enough. I think really big, I believe. The problem is: I am not the kind of charismatic personality that is able to convince fellows to participate (friends would rather describe me as "brilliant scientist who tends to polarizes (in both positive and negative sense of the word) people"); so I am rather completely on my own - and the day only has 24 hours. :-( EDIT: And what about people who honestly say that they are open to such ambitious projects but honestly admit that they first have to learn the ropes and if they get to a sufficiently high skill level, they will think about such ambitious question (in other words: It makes no sense thinking about these questions as long as you don't have the skills to work on them).
  - 10y ago