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Chinese students are products of an educational system that, for all of its high achievers, is built to suppress intellectual curiosity, creativity and individu

Chinese students are products of an educational system that, for all of its high achievers, is built to suppress intellectual curiosity, creativity and individuality – the very qualities that American admissions officers value most. Let's not pretend Chinese students are turned away because they lack individuality. The fairly well documented[0][1][2] truth here is that American universities are using qualities like "leadership" to justify what is really a quota on Asian students. I totally understand that none of the evidence is conclusive, but the fact that this is happening to Asian American students, who for the most part never go through the Chinese educational system this particular article blames, should at least cast a good amount of doubt on their claim. [0] http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-harberson-asian-american-admission-rates-20150609-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-harberson-asian-a... [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/asian-american-organizations-seek-federal-probe-of-harvard-admission-policies-1431719348 http://www.wsj.com/articles/asian-american-organizations-see... [2] https://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-against-asians https://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-...

qntty 10y ago
There's a big difference between the discrimination against Asian-American students (which does happen) and discrimination against students from Asia. For one, public universities exist mostly to educate people from the state they are based, and can justify discriminating against people outside the state and even more against people who don't live in states which exchange students with that state (i.e. people outside the country). Private universities can also say that one of their main purposes is to educate the population of the countries that they are based in. None of this justifies discriminating against Asian-American students, which is truly unjust, and shouldn't be confused for justifiable discrimination.
- Naritai 10y ago
  But if that (educating their own country's people) were their goal (leaving aside, for the moment, whether we agree on the validity of that goal), it would be much better if they just said so, rather than relying on a stereotype-driven narrative instead.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    I believe they rather educate (and select applicants) based on the values of the country where the university is located. So they don't discriminate actively against Chinese applicants, but against some of the values that the Chinese education system imparts.
- BeetleB 10y ago
  >None of this justifies discriminating against Asian-American students, which is truly unjust, and shouldn't be confused for justifiable discrimination. I keep hearing this (primarily from Asian Americans who feel they didn't get into their preferred top N school), and yet they never provide evidence to support it. They give me reason and logic, but no evidence. It is trivially easy to find counterexamples to all their reason.
  - Naritai 10y ago
    Did you look at the 3 links provided above? To quote from [3]: "They find that being Asian is the equivalent of a 140 point score penalty on your SAT when applying to top private universities. For example, a white student that scored 1360 on the SATs would be on equal footing with an Asian student that scored 1500."
    - willhslade 10y ago
      Asking for a friend: how do they penalize half Asians?
      - Naritai 10y ago
        As far as the statistics go, on the application form they ask you for what race you self-identify as. There are only a certain number of checkboxes so a 'half' just has to choose which box to tick. That's the meaning behind the line in [3]: "Asian-American students face an extra source of stress : deciding whether to respond to the application question asking for their race and ethnicity."
      - csa 10y ago
        They don't penalize Asians or half-Asians at all. Be an interesting person, and your likelihood of getting into a given school increases dramatically, and the odds of getting into at least one of a few that your friend applies to approaches 100%. Feel free to ask more about what "interesting" means.
        10y ago
crispyambulance 10y ago
Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or lawyer.
- munin 10y ago
  > and no authentic detectable motivation They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18?
  - 6stringmerc 10y ago
    To get an education to facilitate a "good" job, pay my own bills, make my own decisions about free time, friendships and activities, and, most of all, not have to live with my parents. Granted, I'd had tastes of all of these growing up in a well rounded home life, but those were the values instilled in me. How I chose to get there was up to me.
  - EliRivers 10y ago
    I had a real, authentic interest in my chosen degree subject. I really, genuinely wanted to know all about it. I didn't ever want a job (and I still don't want one). I really, authentically wanted to be good at it for no other purpose than the pleasure of being able to fluidly understand it and play with it.
    - oblio 10y ago
      You must be either rich or have a very frugal, possibly isolated lifestyle. Most people don't fit either of those categories.
      - EliRivers 10y ago
        I didn't say I don't have a job. I said I don't want one. It turns out that I don't want to be living rough on the streets to a greater degree than I don't want a job.
inimino 10y ago
> Let's not pretend Chinese students are turned away because they lack individuality. They absolutely are. As someone who has been involved in this process, this is without question the biggest challenge for Chinese students to apply to top schools. They simply do not have the individuality and intellectual curiosity that US universities want. The reason is because having those qualities is totally incompatible with high achievement in the Chinese educational system up through high school. The high scoring Chinese students were either never interested in critical thought or they completely repressed that tendency at an early age.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > The high scoring Chinese students were either never interested in critical thought What you call "critical thought" is what I would rather call "'critical' thought in what is the currently an opportune fashion". I know lots of people who have critical thoughts, but not in the sense of what admission panels like to see as "critical thought".
  - inimino 10y ago
    I mean they can't challenge an idea that is given, because they have no practice doing it. The students that challenge authority, even privately, don't have an easy time in that system.

qntty 10y ago

There's a big difference between the discrimination against Asian-American students (which does happen) and discrimination against students from Asia. For one, public universities exist mostly to educate people from the state they are based, and can justify discriminating against people outside the state and even more against people who don't live in states which exchange students with that state (i.e. people outside the country). Private universities can also say that one of their main purposes is to educate the population of the countries that they are based in. None of this justifies discriminating against Asian-American students, which is truly unjust, and shouldn't be confused for justifiable discrimination.

Naritai 10y ago
But if that (educating their own country's people) were their goal (leaving aside, for the moment, whether we agree on the validity of that goal), it would be much better if they just said so, rather than relying on a stereotype-driven narrative instead.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  I believe they rather educate (and select applicants) based on the values of the country where the university is located. So they don't discriminate actively against Chinese applicants, but against some of the values that the Chinese education system imparts.
BeetleB 10y ago
>None of this justifies discriminating against Asian-American students, which is truly unjust, and shouldn't be confused for justifiable discrimination. I keep hearing this (primarily from Asian Americans who feel they didn't get into their preferred top N school), and yet they never provide evidence to support it. They give me reason and logic, but no evidence. It is trivially easy to find counterexamples to all their reason.
- Naritai 10y ago
  Did you look at the 3 links provided above? To quote from [3]: "They find that being Asian is the equivalent of a 140 point score penalty on your SAT when applying to top private universities. For example, a white student that scored 1360 on the SATs would be on equal footing with an Asian student that scored 1500."
  - willhslade 10y ago
    Asking for a friend: how do they penalize half Asians?
    - Naritai 10y ago
      As far as the statistics go, on the application form they ask you for what race you self-identify as. There are only a certain number of checkboxes so a 'half' just has to choose which box to tick. That's the meaning behind the line in [3]: "Asian-American students face an extra source of stress : deciding whether to respond to the application question asking for their race and ethnicity."
    - csa 10y ago
      They don't penalize Asians or half-Asians at all. Be an interesting person, and your likelihood of getting into a given school increases dramatically, and the odds of getting into at least one of a few that your friend applies to approaches 100%. Feel free to ask more about what "interesting" means.
      - 10y ago

crispyambulance 10y ago

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or lawyer.

munin 10y ago
> and no authentic detectable motivation They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18?
- 6stringmerc 10y ago
  To get an education to facilitate a "good" job, pay my own bills, make my own decisions about free time, friendships and activities, and, most of all, not have to live with my parents. Granted, I'd had tastes of all of these growing up in a well rounded home life, but those were the values instilled in me. How I chose to get there was up to me.
- EliRivers 10y ago
  I had a real, authentic interest in my chosen degree subject. I really, genuinely wanted to know all about it. I didn't ever want a job (and I still don't want one). I really, authentically wanted to be good at it for no other purpose than the pleasure of being able to fluidly understand it and play with it.
  - oblio 10y ago
    You must be either rich or have a very frugal, possibly isolated lifestyle. Most people don't fit either of those categories.
    - EliRivers 10y ago
      I didn't say I don't have a job. I said I don't want one. It turns out that I don't want to be living rough on the streets to a greater degree than I don't want a job.

inimino 10y ago

> Let's not pretend Chinese students are turned away because they lack individuality. They absolutely are. As someone who has been involved in this process, this is without question the biggest challenge for Chinese students to apply to top schools. They simply do not have the individuality and intellectual curiosity that US universities want. The reason is because having those qualities is totally incompatible with high achievement in the Chinese educational system up through high school. The high scoring Chinese students were either never interested in critical thought or they completely repressed that tendency at an early age.

wolfgke 10y ago
> The high scoring Chinese students were either never interested in critical thought What you call "critical thought" is what I would rather call "'critical' thought in what is the currently an opportune fashion". I know lots of people who have critical thoughts, but not in the sense of what admission panels like to see as "critical thought".
- inimino 10y ago
  I mean they can't challenge an idea that is given, because they have no practice doing it. The students that challenge authority, even privately, don't have an easy time in that system.