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How about we avoid all antivirus software, integrate virtualization as a key feature of the UI of our operating system, and completely sandbox all apps. We have

How about we avoid all antivirus software, integrate virtualization as a key feature of the UI of our operating system, and completely sandbox all apps. We have the technology to do this (Qubes does it now) but it's not going mainstream. I don't know why but I think this would be the end goal of computing. Completely segregate your work from your machine and only give it access to things that make sense. (Chrome doesn't need to see /etc/nginx or be able to run systemctl). I also don't think we should trust Microsoft to not use similar exploits as other AV products in the future and I think the biggest problem here is primarily an issue for proprietary software. One example is "Furthermore, as Justin Schuh pointed out in that Twitter thread, AV products poison the software ecosystem because their invasive and poorly-implemented code makes it difficult for browser vendors and other developers to improve their own security" I have a hard time beliving that a libre-AV would have this problem. I've never seen bad architecture prevent security fixes and I've never seen bad architecture stay for long when it's only one rewrite away from being fixed. (I'm making no comments about compatability because no doubt even the command arguments will be renamed and their order will be changed)

Klathmon 10y ago
>We have the technology to do this (Qubes does it now) but it's not going mainstream. It is starting to go mainstream. Most mobile phones do a lesser form of this, most "web apps" do a very similar form of this, even new windows 10 UWP apps are pushing in this direction. Everyone knows it's needed, and many see how good of a solution it is, and how much MORE can be done once there is a good baseline, but that line needs to be walked very carefully. Once apps stop being able to do their job because of un-escapable restrictions, it becomes a problem. And once it becomes a problem, people (both developers and users) will start actively trying to get around it, which means it's not going to work at all.
sjellis 10y ago
> How about we avoid all antivirus software, integrate virtualization as a key feature of the UI of our operating system, and completely sandbox all apps. This is basically the end-game for Flatpak: https://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2017/01/24/the-flatpak-security-model-part-3-the-long-game/ https://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2017/01/24/the-flatpak-securit... Flatpak is vendor-neutral, but it will provide the sandbox isolation that may then enable Fedora to ramp up to Atomic Workstation, a fully containerized desktop OS: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/AtomicWorkstation https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/AtomicWorkstation Hopefully we will see other Linux distributions integrate the technology as it matures. FWIW, Microsoft are developing VM-based isolation for the browser: https://threatpost.com/microsoft-edge-adds-app-guard-browser-security/120925/ https://threatpost.com/microsoft-edge-adds-app-guard-browser...
emodendroket 10y ago
One of the nice properties of PC applications is the ease of interoperation in ways not necessarily envisioned by the original authors of the software; in a purely sandboxed world that goes away.

Klathmon 10y ago

>We have the technology to do this (Qubes does it now) but it's not going mainstream. It is starting to go mainstream. Most mobile phones do a lesser form of this, most "web apps" do a very similar form of this, even new windows 10 UWP apps are pushing in this direction. Everyone knows it's needed, and many see how good of a solution it is, and how much MORE can be done once there is a good baseline, but that line needs to be walked very carefully. Once apps stop being able to do their job because of un-escapable restrictions, it becomes a problem. And once it becomes a problem, people (both developers and users) will start actively trying to get around it, which means it's not going to work at all.

sjellis 10y ago

> How about we avoid all antivirus software, integrate virtualization as a key feature of the UI of our operating system, and completely sandbox all apps. This is basically the end-game for Flatpak: https://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2017/01/24/the-flatpak-security-model-part-3-the-long-game/ https://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2017/01/24/the-flatpak-securit... Flatpak is vendor-neutral, but it will provide the sandbox isolation that may then enable Fedora to ramp up to Atomic Workstation, a fully containerized desktop OS: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/AtomicWorkstation https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/AtomicWorkstation Hopefully we will see other Linux distributions integrate the technology as it matures. FWIW, Microsoft are developing VM-based isolation for the browser: https://threatpost.com/microsoft-edge-adds-app-guard-browser-security/120925/ https://threatpost.com/microsoft-edge-adds-app-guard-browser...

emodendroket 10y ago

One of the nice properties of PC applications is the ease of interoperation in ways not necessarily envisioned by the original authors of the software; in a purely sandboxed world that goes away.