14 ms·

I recognize this is about 15 years too late but stolen is the wrong word. The vernacular usage of stolen has an inherent bias that some entity is being deprived

I recognize this is about 15 years too late but stolen is the wrong word. The vernacular usage of stolen has an inherent bias that some entity is being deprived which isn't necessarily the case.

mkempe 10y ago
Exactly. "Stolen" -- or liberated?
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> The vernacular usage of stolen has an inherent bias that some entity is being deprived The concepts of "stealing" an idea, i.e. taking credit for someone else's, and "stealing" someone's spotlight occur in standard vernacular [1]. These don't concern depriving someone of something they have, but depriving them of something they could have had. The logic behind modern copyright is that distribution someone else's content deprives them of potential sales, royalties, et cetera. There is reasonable debate around whether science, particularly taxpayer-funded science, should be copyrighted. But arguing you can't "steal" the intangible runs counter to our culture. A more productive line of argument lies in attacking what can be copyrighted and for how long. [1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=steal_INF+idea%2Csteal_INF+_DET_+spotlight&year_start=1950&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cstolen%20idea%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Csteal_INF%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bsteal%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bstole%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bstealing%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bstolen%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bsteals%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=steal_INF+idea...
- jMyles 10y ago
  > counter to our culture Whose culture? The culture that surrounds me seems organized almost chiefly, and at least largely, around radical freedom of information.
  - bootload 10y ago
    @jMyles, "culture" is especially applicable to music, where musicians appropriate tunes from many cultures and enforce copyright.
  - johncolanduoni 10y ago
    If that's how you're defining the scope of your culture, then why would you claim to know what the word steal means for those not in your "culture"?
    - jMyles 10y ago
      > why would you claim to know what the word steal means for those not in your "culture"? I... didn't do that. I don't think? Did I?
- angersock 10y ago
  A great deal of the publishing industry in the United States was founded on copyright infringement. And there is not really a case of "stealing" an idea--which is incidentally one of the most tiresome claims anyone ever makes--but rather distributing the fully-credited articles through alternative channels.
- wyager 10y ago
  > But arguing you can't "steal" the intangible The issue is not intangibility. The issue is scarcity and ownership. Theft is (or rather, ought to be) when you deprive someone of a scarce resource they can claim ownership over. If they can't claim ownership of it, or you're not depriving them of anything, then it's not theft. Any given idea, after it has been conceived, is obviously not scarce; the reproduction costs for an idea are essentially zero. You can't deprive someone of any idea by copying it. The question, then, is whether you can claim ownership over the control of an idea (i.e. who is allowed to know the idea, and how they are allowed to apply it). To me, that seems insane, but obviously not to everyone.
  - closeparen 10y ago
    The level of support for this idea is astounding for a community where most people put food in their mouths by providing their employers with exclusive control of "ideas" (source code).
    - wyager 10y ago
      Our jobs would still exist in the absence of the current overbearing IP system. The legal structure would just be slightly different. There are any number of ways companies could continue to have proprietary technology without patents, and even without copyrights.
- bainsfather 10y ago
  I recognize 'stealing the credit for an idea' - the credit is taken away from me if you claim the idea as your own. But copying an idea without taking the credit isn't stealing in the English culture I am part of.
rosalinekarr 10y ago
"You wouldn't steal a car!" "Yeah, but if I could burn a copy..."
bitmapbrother 10y ago
Stolen is the right word. These publications were funded by public money and were stolen from the public for monetary gain.
MarkMc 10y ago
Surely the people who own the copyright are being deprived in this case. Doesn't it affect their future revenue to have 50 million articles available online for free?
MarkMc 10y ago
I don't see how you can claim that the people who own the copyright are not being deprived. Doesn't it affect their future revenue? Isn't that why they restrict access?
lamontcg 10y ago
Yeah, if I downloaded an article from sci-hub all it does is free up my time that I otherwise would have spent driving across town to the University library and the university is out a few bucks for using the copying machine. And I doubt the copying machine at the University is doing more than paying for its maintenance. I wouldn't have spent hundreds of dollars to get the article anyway.

I recognize this is about 15 years too late but stolen is the wrong word. The vernacular usage of stolen has an inherent bias that some entity is being deprived which isn't necessarily the case.

mkempe 10y ago

Exactly. "Stolen" -- or liberated?

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> The vernacular usage of stolen has an inherent bias that some entity is being deprived The concepts of "stealing" an idea, i.e. taking credit for someone else's, and "stealing" someone's spotlight occur in standard vernacular [1]. These don't concern depriving someone of something they have, but depriving them of something they could have had. The logic behind modern copyright is that distribution someone else's content deprives them of potential sales, royalties, et cetera. There is reasonable debate around whether science, particularly taxpayer-funded science, should be copyrighted. But arguing you can't "steal" the intangible runs counter to our culture. A more productive line of argument lies in attacking what can be copyrighted and for how long. [1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=steal_INF+idea%2Csteal_INF+_DET_+spotlight&year_start=1950&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cstolen%20idea%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Csteal_INF%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bsteal%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bstole%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bstealing%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bstolen%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bsteals%20_DET_%20spotlight%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=steal_INF+idea...

jMyles 10y ago
> counter to our culture Whose culture? The culture that surrounds me seems organized almost chiefly, and at least largely, around radical freedom of information.
- bootload 10y ago
  @jMyles, "culture" is especially applicable to music, where musicians appropriate tunes from many cultures and enforce copyright.
- johncolanduoni 10y ago
  If that's how you're defining the scope of your culture, then why would you claim to know what the word steal means for those not in your "culture"?
  - jMyles 10y ago
    > why would you claim to know what the word steal means for those not in your "culture"? I... didn't do that. I don't think? Did I?
angersock 10y ago
A great deal of the publishing industry in the United States was founded on copyright infringement. And there is not really a case of "stealing" an idea--which is incidentally one of the most tiresome claims anyone ever makes--but rather distributing the fully-credited articles through alternative channels.
wyager 10y ago
> But arguing you can't "steal" the intangible The issue is not intangibility. The issue is scarcity and ownership. Theft is (or rather, ought to be) when you deprive someone of a scarce resource they can claim ownership over. If they can't claim ownership of it, or you're not depriving them of anything, then it's not theft. Any given idea, after it has been conceived, is obviously not scarce; the reproduction costs for an idea are essentially zero. You can't deprive someone of any idea by copying it. The question, then, is whether you can claim ownership over the control of an idea (i.e. who is allowed to know the idea, and how they are allowed to apply it). To me, that seems insane, but obviously not to everyone.
- closeparen 10y ago
  The level of support for this idea is astounding for a community where most people put food in their mouths by providing their employers with exclusive control of "ideas" (source code).
  - wyager 10y ago
    Our jobs would still exist in the absence of the current overbearing IP system. The legal structure would just be slightly different. There are any number of ways companies could continue to have proprietary technology without patents, and even without copyrights.
bainsfather 10y ago
I recognize 'stealing the credit for an idea' - the credit is taken away from me if you claim the idea as your own. But copying an idea without taking the credit isn't stealing in the English culture I am part of.

rosalinekarr 10y ago

"You wouldn't steal a car!" "Yeah, but if I could burn a copy..."

bitmapbrother 10y ago

Stolen is the right word. These publications were funded by public money and were stolen from the public for monetary gain.

MarkMc 10y ago

Surely the people who own the copyright are being deprived in this case. Doesn't it affect their future revenue to have 50 million articles available online for free?

MarkMc 10y ago

I don't see how you can claim that the people who own the copyright are not being deprived. Doesn't it affect their future revenue? Isn't that why they restrict access?

lamontcg 10y ago

Yeah, if I downloaded an article from sci-hub all it does is free up my time that I otherwise would have spent driving across town to the University library and the university is out a few bucks for using the copying machine. And I doubt the copying machine at the University is doing more than paying for its maintenance. I wouldn't have spent hundreds of dollars to get the article anyway.