6 ms·

Before anyone thinks Switzerland is some bastion of democracy, I'd like to point out that they've been very conservative in some areas. Women didn't have federa

by Strom 10y ago

Before anyone thinks Switzerland is some bastion of democracy, I'd like to point out that they've been very conservative in some areas. Women didn't have federal voting rights until 1971, and received nation-wide local voting rights fairly recently in 1991. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage_in_Switzerlan...

santaclaus 10y ago
There is also a fair amount of xenophobia inherent in the Swiss national identity. I know Germans who have lived there for 10+ years and are still considered outsiders.
- Malice 10y ago
  Can you name a place that doesn't have that? I've lived in three different (Western) countries and felt the same thing in all of them.
  - gnopgnip 10y ago
    Toronto, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco
    - coldtea 10y ago
      Talk to some immigrants in those places that are not white/asian and/or successful.
  - y4mi 10y ago
    you've lived in three western countries for 10+ years each, and your mother tongue is one of the official languages of the 'foreign' nation?
    - Malice 10y ago
      If I understand your question correctly, then yes.
  - erinnh 10y ago
    Switzerland is very much worse than a lot of other country in that regard. It might happen in other countries as well, but its very much the majority in Switzerland.
    - kgwgk 10y ago
      Switzerland has one of the largest percentages of foreign-born and non-citizen residents, so probably it's not so bad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign...
  - Pica_soO 10y ago
    Actually, that is a human trait you will find everywhere. Sometimes it comes in a cultural disguise (unbelievers), sometimes hidden away, because the rich guy/woman might share the wealth, but wherever you go, people are suspicious/hateful of strangers. Only group exempt from that is teenagers, who seem to be less risk averse, but if socially lower ranking also go full foreigner hatred to boost self-esteem. Milk the hatred and distrust for the benefits (Always double-check on foreign science! ) and name it to everyone falling for it as what it is: Ancient Ape bugs. So mild mockery would be the best reaction i guess. Social suppression seems to have failed on a large scale recently.
- rabidrat 10y ago
  Being considered an outsider is not bad. Being treated as subhuman or as an enemy because you are an outsider, that's when it becomes a problem.
- marktucker 10y ago
  In my experience, all you have to do is (passably) speak swiss german to be accepted by the locals. A lot of Germans live here 10+ years without speaking swiss german and I notice some distaste from the Swiss since a Swiss guy will feel like it's rude if he doesn't speak high german with a German, and many really don't like speaking high german. There's definitely other forms of xenophobia here, though. There are a lot of negative stereotypes about some of the refugees that have come to Switzerland over the years, and many Swiss I talk to dislike the idea of refugees coming to Switzerland and choosing not to work (being unable to work is a different story).
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    > and many Swiss I talk to dislike the idea of refugees coming to Switzerland and choosing not to work I'm sorry, but who actually likes that idea?
    - dgfgfdagasdfgfa 10y ago
      I mean, it's kind of weird to feel anything about what others do with their time.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        Depends if they do it on your dime and in your country -- the one you're supposed to take care of because you live in it.
        dgfgfdagasdfgfa 10y ago
        It's all one damn earth. People already take advantage of each other. Why worry about the person next door? At least they aren't trying to kill you.
        coldtea 10y ago
        >At least they aren't trying to kill you. Depends. Most are not, but in some cases, they are (e.g. islamic terrorism in France and Germany). But the main reason is that some peoples/places have developed their own culture over centuries, and don't particularly appreciate some large rush of newcomers bringing their own stuff and messing the nice thing they have got going.
- RUG3Y 10y ago
  Preserving a distinctly Swiss culture and society is what allows them to remain successful.
nine_k 10y ago
If you run a democracy for nearly 850 years, it sort of looks a bit conservative. Progressivism != democracy. Athens as of 500AD were technically utterly democratic, and had slavery, let alone no voting rights for women. Progress can also be quite un-democratic. E.g. Soviet Union in 1920-30s progressed quickly to afford universal education, equal rights for women, let alone science and industry (especially military industry). It was quite anti-democratic, though, with fake elections (having just one "contender" in the bulletin), those who happened to be born into former "bourgeoisie" having severe restrictions in civil rights, let alone incarcerating and executing lots of people without any due process.
- gvd 10y ago
  Let me also point out that conservative in this case does not mean US conservative. US conservatism is slowly creeping towards theological conservatism.
  - gumaflux 10y ago
    Isn't US "C"onservatism more or less just a prolonged arm for "Corporatism", not so much theological values there is it?
    - gvd 10y ago
      It is, but their audiance are often fundamental Christians who gobble up anything that matches their conservative ideas (which usually involves limiting other people's freedoms). Look at Trump right now, total scumbag if you look at the evidence, but somehow the represents their "values".
MrBuddyCasino 10y ago
But thats kind of the point isn't it? Some Kanton decides by popular vote to be conservative, and they can do so. They are not forced to follow some politically progressive agenda, and so the people are not alienated as in other democracies. The downside is that progress is slower, but the upside is that the system remains stable and there are no backlashes against a perceived "liberal hivemind" or whatnot. Democracy does not mean that sensible things happen, it means the people govern themselves, for good or for worse. Switzerland has found a feedback cycle that works exceptionally well. So you voted to spend lots of money on a football stadium? Well sorry, we can't afford free kindergarten anymore. People learn from this and retain identification with the political system.

by Strom 10y ago

santaclaus 10y ago

There is also a fair amount of xenophobia inherent in the Swiss national identity. I know Germans who have lived there for 10+ years and are still considered outsiders.

Malice 10y ago
Can you name a place that doesn't have that? I've lived in three different (Western) countries and felt the same thing in all of them.
- gnopgnip 10y ago
  Toronto, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Talk to some immigrants in those places that are not white/asian and/or successful.
- y4mi 10y ago
  you've lived in three western countries for 10+ years each, and your mother tongue is one of the official languages of the 'foreign' nation?
  - Malice 10y ago
    If I understand your question correctly, then yes.
- erinnh 10y ago
  Switzerland is very much worse than a lot of other country in that regard. It might happen in other countries as well, but its very much the majority in Switzerland.
  - kgwgk 10y ago
    Switzerland has one of the largest percentages of foreign-born and non-citizen residents, so probably it's not so bad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign...
- Pica_soO 10y ago
  Actually, that is a human trait you will find everywhere. Sometimes it comes in a cultural disguise (unbelievers), sometimes hidden away, because the rich guy/woman might share the wealth, but wherever you go, people are suspicious/hateful of strangers. Only group exempt from that is teenagers, who seem to be less risk averse, but if socially lower ranking also go full foreigner hatred to boost self-esteem. Milk the hatred and distrust for the benefits (Always double-check on foreign science! ) and name it to everyone falling for it as what it is: Ancient Ape bugs. So mild mockery would be the best reaction i guess. Social suppression seems to have failed on a large scale recently.
rabidrat 10y ago
Being considered an outsider is not bad. Being treated as subhuman or as an enemy because you are an outsider, that's when it becomes a problem.
marktucker 10y ago
In my experience, all you have to do is (passably) speak swiss german to be accepted by the locals. A lot of Germans live here 10+ years without speaking swiss german and I notice some distaste from the Swiss since a Swiss guy will feel like it's rude if he doesn't speak high german with a German, and many really don't like speaking high german. There's definitely other forms of xenophobia here, though. There are a lot of negative stereotypes about some of the refugees that have come to Switzerland over the years, and many Swiss I talk to dislike the idea of refugees coming to Switzerland and choosing not to work (being unable to work is a different story).
- lacampbell 10y ago
  > and many Swiss I talk to dislike the idea of refugees coming to Switzerland and choosing not to work I'm sorry, but who actually likes that idea?
  - dgfgfdagasdfgfa 10y ago
    I mean, it's kind of weird to feel anything about what others do with their time.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      Depends if they do it on your dime and in your country -- the one you're supposed to take care of because you live in it.
      - dgfgfdagasdfgfa 10y ago
        It's all one damn earth. People already take advantage of each other. Why worry about the person next door? At least they aren't trying to kill you.
        coldtea 10y ago
        >At least they aren't trying to kill you. Depends. Most are not, but in some cases, they are (e.g. islamic terrorism in France and Germany). But the main reason is that some peoples/places have developed their own culture over centuries, and don't particularly appreciate some large rush of newcomers bringing their own stuff and messing the nice thing they have got going.
RUG3Y 10y ago
Preserving a distinctly Swiss culture and society is what allows them to remain successful.

nine_k 10y ago

If you run a democracy for nearly 850 years, it sort of looks a bit conservative. Progressivism != democracy. Athens as of 500AD were technically utterly democratic, and had slavery, let alone no voting rights for women. Progress can also be quite un-democratic. E.g. Soviet Union in 1920-30s progressed quickly to afford universal education, equal rights for women, let alone science and industry (especially military industry). It was quite anti-democratic, though, with fake elections (having just one "contender" in the bulletin), those who happened to be born into former "bourgeoisie" having severe restrictions in civil rights, let alone incarcerating and executing lots of people without any due process.

gvd 10y ago
Let me also point out that conservative in this case does not mean US conservative. US conservatism is slowly creeping towards theological conservatism.
- gumaflux 10y ago
  Isn't US "C"onservatism more or less just a prolonged arm for "Corporatism", not so much theological values there is it?
  - gvd 10y ago
    It is, but their audiance are often fundamental Christians who gobble up anything that matches their conservative ideas (which usually involves limiting other people's freedoms). Look at Trump right now, total scumbag if you look at the evidence, but somehow the represents their "values".

MrBuddyCasino 10y ago

But thats kind of the point isn't it? Some Kanton decides by popular vote to be conservative, and they can do so. They are not forced to follow some politically progressive agenda, and so the people are not alienated as in other democracies. The downside is that progress is slower, but the upside is that the system remains stable and there are no backlashes against a perceived "liberal hivemind" or whatnot. Democracy does not mean that sensible things happen, it means the people govern themselves, for good or for worse. Switzerland has found a feedback cycle that works exceptionally well. So you voted to spend lots of money on a football stadium? Well sorry, we can't afford free kindergarten anymore. People learn from this and retain identification with the political system.