4 ms·

I'm having a hard time understanding the issue or being empathetic. If somebody invites you to go to dinner and a movie, why cant you explain that you cant affo

I'm having a hard time understanding the issue or being empathetic. If somebody invites you to go to dinner and a movie, why cant you explain that you cant afford it or would rather not spend the money? Would you rather them not invite you? I've always found that rich people are not trying to put you down by talking about their boats, clothes, or businesses. They just live with a different set of parameters that people can't relate to. I think it's wrong to expect Harvard to provide a "safe space" for poor people. We should instead expect everyone to respect each others differences. Rich, poor, jamaican, colombian... People are people. Instead of being self-conscious about what makes you different, embrace the differences and expand your world view.

c0nfused 10y ago
Not an ivy league attendee but I married into it. I admitted at an Ivy League gathering that I had gone to state school and my conversational partner looked at me as if I had suddenly changed, turned, and walked away without another word. Sure, it didn't hurt too bad at 25 with a good job and a mortgage. At 18 I can see that smarting a bit more than it did and I'm telling this to you almost a decade after the fact. Allowing people to form a club for people like them is completely okay, as is trying to not label them as "the poor kids". I don't disagree that people should strive to overcome but a large number of folks entering college are less prepared that you would hope for the social changes generally and I imagine that for the poor kid in the literal halls of power that would be enormously challenging and a little support isn't going to bankrupt the ivy league or hurt anyone getting some help to blend in.
thex10 10y ago
> I think it's wrong to expect Harvard to provide a "safe space" for poor people. Is anyone asking for this? What a disingenuous comment. > Instead of being self-conscious about what makes you different, embrace the differences and expand your world view. Sure. But that can be a risky endeavor. Embracing differences isn't all sunshine and roses. So what might practicing this mean in practice for the poor student. "Sure, I'll go socialize with you tonight and expand my world view!" Oh fuck, now I'm broke and can't pay for housing anymore. "Ok I'll party with you and do coke with you and expand my world view!" Wow we both bombed our finals, but my scholarship won't support me with this lower GPA, guess I won't see you in class next semester, bye.
- zebrafish 10y ago
  > Is anyone asking for this? What a disingenuous comment. I suppose I should have used a less politically charged term despite the nature of my intention. Maybe the quotation marks triggered your response. Safe space was simply a convenient term to describe: > the First Generation Student Union, pushing for a better understanding of challenges financially disadvantaged students face.
  - nikdaheratik 10y ago
    I kind of see your point, but OTOH, retention is a huge issue throughout higher education. Some of this is due to the expansion of college compared to the 50s and 60s, but not all. State schools have something like this, though maybe by a different name. Scholarship athletes also have direct help in order to keep their grades up to snuff, but also because a large portion of them are also first generation college students. If you have 12% or more of your first year class dropping out because of preparedness, then the institution has a big problem regardless of whether it is a state school or an ivy league. And if a high portion of that group is lower income, that's a huge black eye for some of the wealthiest and most prestigious institutions in the world.
wflynny 10y ago
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I think part of the issue is not just that you can't afford to "go to dinner and a movie"; some aspects of the Ivys' cultures are built upon wealth and being poor inherently sets you apart. Anecdote: at my wife's Ivy medical school, there are several events each semester in which students are encouraged to drop several thousand dollars in a single 4 hour event. One example is a charity auction in which faculty auction off experiences like a boat trip or tours of their wine cellar to students. Some of these items go for 5 figure dollar amounts. Events like these specifically exclude poor students or students with families by design. While attendance isn't mandatory, the events are planned and executed by the student body via assignment or election, so it is difficult to not be included in some form or another. I can understand how, after attending for a few semesters, one would feel that wealth defines the culture there and that being poor excludes you from that culture. Edit: it's also important that while all ages and socioeconomic statues attend the Ivys, the vast majority of undergraduates are 18-22. As someone 10 years older and who has an adopted daughter that age, what you suggest isn't advice that will be widely adopted by people of that age group.
- zebrafish 10y ago
  I suppose it is naive of me to expect 18 year olds to have the maturity to understand the differences between people. I'm just hopeful that the poor kids would understand that the merit of their hard work has at least placed them on equal footing with the rich kids when it comes to educational opportunity and resume credentials. I hope that there is a mentor on campus who can show them that this is something to be proud of.
  - jdmichal 10y ago
    > ...on equal footing with the rich kids when it comes to educational opportunity and resume credentials. Except minus all that awesome networking and shoulder-rubbing. Which is, arguably, the actual value proposition of an ivy league vs a state school.
rconti 10y ago
I think the problem is just that already-insecure teenagers from background they feel insecure about are at institutions that make them feel even more insecure. I agree we should be more open about money, but I think it's just hard when you're at that point in life. It's from a starting point of privilege now that I make a good living, but I make it a point to say "I'm not sure I want to spend that much money" if friends talk about plans that don't strike me as worth it... rather than make some other excuse.

c0nfused 10y ago

Not an ivy league attendee but I married into it. I admitted at an Ivy League gathering that I had gone to state school and my conversational partner looked at me as if I had suddenly changed, turned, and walked away without another word. Sure, it didn't hurt too bad at 25 with a good job and a mortgage. At 18 I can see that smarting a bit more than it did and I'm telling this to you almost a decade after the fact. Allowing people to form a club for people like them is completely okay, as is trying to not label them as "the poor kids". I don't disagree that people should strive to overcome but a large number of folks entering college are less prepared that you would hope for the social changes generally and I imagine that for the poor kid in the literal halls of power that would be enormously challenging and a little support isn't going to bankrupt the ivy league or hurt anyone getting some help to blend in.

thex10 10y ago

> I think it's wrong to expect Harvard to provide a "safe space" for poor people. Is anyone asking for this? What a disingenuous comment. > Instead of being self-conscious about what makes you different, embrace the differences and expand your world view. Sure. But that can be a risky endeavor. Embracing differences isn't all sunshine and roses. So what might practicing this mean in practice for the poor student. "Sure, I'll go socialize with you tonight and expand my world view!" Oh fuck, now I'm broke and can't pay for housing anymore. "Ok I'll party with you and do coke with you and expand my world view!" Wow we both bombed our finals, but my scholarship won't support me with this lower GPA, guess I won't see you in class next semester, bye.

zebrafish 10y ago
> Is anyone asking for this? What a disingenuous comment. I suppose I should have used a less politically charged term despite the nature of my intention. Maybe the quotation marks triggered your response. Safe space was simply a convenient term to describe: > the First Generation Student Union, pushing for a better understanding of challenges financially disadvantaged students face.
- nikdaheratik 10y ago
  I kind of see your point, but OTOH, retention is a huge issue throughout higher education. Some of this is due to the expansion of college compared to the 50s and 60s, but not all. State schools have something like this, though maybe by a different name. Scholarship athletes also have direct help in order to keep their grades up to snuff, but also because a large portion of them are also first generation college students. If you have 12% or more of your first year class dropping out because of preparedness, then the institution has a big problem regardless of whether it is a state school or an ivy league. And if a high portion of that group is lower income, that's a huge black eye for some of the wealthiest and most prestigious institutions in the world.

wflynny 10y ago

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I think part of the issue is not just that you can't afford to "go to dinner and a movie"; some aspects of the Ivys' cultures are built upon wealth and being poor inherently sets you apart. Anecdote: at my wife's Ivy medical school, there are several events each semester in which students are encouraged to drop several thousand dollars in a single 4 hour event. One example is a charity auction in which faculty auction off experiences like a boat trip or tours of their wine cellar to students. Some of these items go for 5 figure dollar amounts. Events like these specifically exclude poor students or students with families by design. While attendance isn't mandatory, the events are planned and executed by the student body via assignment or election, so it is difficult to not be included in some form or another. I can understand how, after attending for a few semesters, one would feel that wealth defines the culture there and that being poor excludes you from that culture. Edit: it's also important that while all ages and socioeconomic statues attend the Ivys, the vast majority of undergraduates are 18-22. As someone 10 years older and who has an adopted daughter that age, what you suggest isn't advice that will be widely adopted by people of that age group.

zebrafish 10y ago
I suppose it is naive of me to expect 18 year olds to have the maturity to understand the differences between people. I'm just hopeful that the poor kids would understand that the merit of their hard work has at least placed them on equal footing with the rich kids when it comes to educational opportunity and resume credentials. I hope that there is a mentor on campus who can show them that this is something to be proud of.
- jdmichal 10y ago
  > ...on equal footing with the rich kids when it comes to educational opportunity and resume credentials. Except minus all that awesome networking and shoulder-rubbing. Which is, arguably, the actual value proposition of an ivy league vs a state school.

rconti 10y ago

I think the problem is just that already-insecure teenagers from background they feel insecure about are at institutions that make them feel even more insecure. I agree we should be more open about money, but I think it's just hard when you're at that point in life. It's from a starting point of privilege now that I make a good living, but I make it a point to say "I'm not sure I want to spend that much money" if friends talk about plans that don't strike me as worth it... rather than make some other excuse.