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This. I remember a similar (but less serious) situation in which I went 2.5 yrs with 0 vacation. I was feeling pretty much beat and close to burned out so I s

This. I remember a similar (but less serious) situation in which I went 2.5 yrs with 0 vacation. I was feeling pretty much beat and close to burned out so I scheduled a vacation outside of the country having basically the max number of PTO days an employee can gather. Told my manager of my plans and he passive aggressively told me that sure, you can take PTO... the project is on fire and we'll launch next month but sure, you go on your vacation. Did not go because I was genuinely scared about my career. Project got pushed another two months. Tried to do the same, same result. Got pushed back again two months. And I was still there, working my ass off. Rewards for that year were mediocre at best, although I worked my ass off. What I learned from that is the fact that work never ever ends. There is no 'perfect' time for leaving. Even after launch, the team may need the original developers to fight fires all day and patch production to keep things running especially if the project was a death march or if the schedule was pushed back a couple of times. Leave, try your best to not burn bridges and be honest with the current employer.

user5994461 10y ago
You missed the most important lesson. 1. Don't work your ass off. Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens. 2. Never sacrifice your personal life for work. It aint worth it.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  So much truth in such a short comment.
- porpoisemonkey 10y ago
  > 1. Don't work your ass off. > Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens. I think this might be an over-generalization and that this is might only hold true for people who are farther along in their careers. I'm currently in year six of mine and I've been given a lot of great projects and early promotions (with subsequent pay jumps) from having been in the minority of people on a team that is working their ass off. These returns have, however, diminished with time. If I had to hazard a guess I think this is probably because a more junior engineer working their ass off can show quick and obvious improvements to the quality of your work and time management skills, which start off as near excrement and iterate to "ok" over time.
  - potatolicious 10y ago
    My experience has been that it all comes down to who you're working for - some people make good on promises of a reward, most people do not. Importantly also - nearly all people will not offer a substantial reward unprompted. If you want something for working your ass of, you need to explicitly demand it, in specific terms (ex., don't ask for "a bonus", get a firm number). A great many managers (arguably, most managers) are in the habit of making promises for rewards that they are either unable or unwilling to keep. My suggestion for people is to figure out which kind of people you're dealing with early on in a job - observe carefully how casually they promise things, and how frequently they live up to these promises. Calibrate your expectations accordingly.
    - porpoisemonkey 10y ago
      > Importantly also - nearly all people will not offer a substantial reward unprompted. If you want something for working your ass of, you need to explicitly demand it, in specific terms (ex., don't ask for "a bonus", get a firm number). This is a really good point. This may be controversial to say but I suspect that this sort of assertive and open negotiation for future reward is part of the reason for the gender pay gap in software. For better or worse, I find that in most cases my male colleagues tend to layout more detailed expectations for compensation in advance of any salary renegotiation (promotion, raise, bonus, etc.) and to make themselves heard when they're not satisfied. In the interest of full disclosure I am male so it could also just be that I am inexperienced with other biases relating to gender.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    I bet you would get wayyyy faster and higher promotions by leaving the company rather than staying. The world is full of people waiting, hopefully, for their 10% yearly raise, repeated over many years. They'll only realize after 5 years that they could have done the same progression by changing company after 2 years. >>> If I had to hazard a guess I think this is probably because a more junior engineer working their ass off can show quick and obvious improvements to the quality of your work and time management skills, which start off as near excrement and iterate to "ok" over time. Lemme tell you how it usually goes. The people at your company around you probably: 1) wont notice your improvements (determining good is hard and they ll forever remember you as the junior who just joined) 2) have zero management support (depends on politics 3) have the organization turned against you (typical raise blocked at X% per year top and only once a year). If one wants to get his progression noticed, one should go interview at other places and tell his achievements in front of interviewers who wants to listen to just that ;) An early stage career is handled by moving early and often, to the next opportunities: https://thehftguy.com/2017/01/23/career-advice-and-salary-negotiations-move-early-and-move-often/ https://thehftguy.com/2017/01/23/career-advice-and-salary-ne...
- lightedman 10y ago
  "Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens." As I sit here and hold 5,000 carats of Mount Baldy Sapphire, all spoken for (at $30/carat) I'm going to have to call shenanigans on that one. I work my ass off mining and I'm rewarded every day with a killer view, fresh air, and a distinct lack of idiot customers and bosses, and then I get to hold some of the rarest and most precious materials on this planet. "Never sacrifice your personal life for work. It aint worth it." You do almost exactly that mining. It's well worth it if you have even 1/10th of a clue of what you're doing.
  - Ensorceled 10y ago
    I think there is an implied "for somebody else".
  - user5994461 10y ago
    There is a difference between working for yourself keeping all the fruits of your labor to you, and working for a company where your reward is fixed by a contract irrelevant of what you actually do.
  - ColanR 10y ago
    Where in the world do you do that for a living??
    - lightedman 10y ago
      Southern California.
  - rhizome 10y ago
    I'm not sure what the parallel here is, is it that a big-ass sapphire has something to do with your personal life? Does "project got pushed another two months." happen in mining? Unused PTO? Do you ever take your hard-won rocks to the guy and he tells you no, they're actually only worth 1/10th what you thought?
    - lightedman 10y ago
- whyileft 10y ago
  > Especially, don't work your ass off as an employee in the United States expecting to be rewarded. It never happens. -FTFY Working for yourself or in more functional economies that actually have things like workers rights is a different story altogether.
  - Sir_Substance 10y ago
    In my experience, better workers rights tend to make your life better regardless of whether you work your arse off or not. In fact, I would say that setting in place systems that push employees to work unsociably heavily and forsake family and life experience in order to be rewarded is a staple of countries with extremely toxic working cultures, such as japan and china. Employers in countries with good workers rights tend to react mostly with abject terror if they discover you've been, say, working weekends. They know what happens if the government or local unions get wind that unpaid weekend work might be some kind of defacto standard in a workplace.
- acetoxy 10y ago
  I've done both mistakes in the past 3 years. I've been on sick leave for 1.5 months now because of stress and I hate myself for doing this. I sleep 3-4 hours each night and I get panic attacks whenever I think about work. Well, now it's been so long that I don't even care but I'm feeling anxious as hell about coming back. I'm probably gonna kill myself soon.
  - s5fs 10y ago
    I genuinely hope you don't kill yourself, feel free to PM if you wanna chat about whatever. A job is just a job, they come and go. We trick ourselves into making them seem far more important than they really are, but ultimately it's just a means to an end. It's so easy to lose sight of that when life gets busy. Things get better but you have to let time do it's thing too. Patience.
  - abraham_s 10y ago
    >>>>I'm probably gonna kill myself soon If you are having such thoughts, please seek help. National Suicide prevention hotline Call 1-800-273-8255
  - imauld 10y ago
    I understand life can be stressful, especially work but if you are looking for a sign not to kill yourself, this is it. You can send me an email at my username at gmail if you need to talk or call this number 1-800-273-8255
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    If you haven't done so while you've been out sick, please see a doctor or therapist for the stress. Heck, even if you've been to a doctor or therapist about this, please talk to them again so they know that so far, it isn't working. At this point, you can probably safely go to the ER and tell them you fear you'll kill yourself so that you'll get urgent help. ==== This stuff you are going through, it can get better. It doesn't last. You can learn to deal with panic attacks, you can change jobs, and so on.
  - hluska 10y ago
    I can identify with how you feel because several years ago, I was in the same boat. I am generally averse to making promises, but in this case, I will make you one. This will get better. Anxiety is an absolutely horrible affliction and panic attacks are my personal definition of hell. The troubling part is that I understand how you feel. When panic attacks were part of my life, I often contemplated putting an end to everything. It wasn't that I hated life...it was that I hated the circumstances under which I had to live life. However, don't hate yourself. You were brave and intelligent enough to listen to your body. Your body screamed at you to stop and you listened. Be proud of yourself because frankly, lots of people like you don't listen to their bodies and die of heart attacks when they are in their 30s. Or, they don't listen to their bodies and develop addictions to alcohol or heavy drugs. You listened to yours and you started the path to getting better. Let time do its work because frankly my friend, this is going to take time. And please, don't kill yourself. I know that this job may seem like the be all and end all, but I promise you that it isn't. There are more jobs out there, and if software doesn't do it for you anymore, there are literally thousands of different careers out there. I believe in you, so I know that you can get through this, but you may need some help or, at the very least, a kind ear. My email address is in my profile. Please use it - I will never judge you and will keep anything you say to myself, unless you tell me about a specific plan to kill yourself. Then, I am sorry that I have to say this, but I will do whatever it takes to keep you from fulfilling that plan. Be safe. You are cared about.
chias 10y ago
> There is no 'perfect' time for leaving This is very, very true. It applies to pretty much any commitment that is bad for you: a bad job, a bad relationship, there's always a Very Important Reason not to do it right now. See also: https://xkcd.com/1768/ https://xkcd.com/1768/
utobi 10y ago
> What I learned from that is the fact that work never ever ends. Exactly this. In general, it is totally fine to have short bursts of overtime but longer periods clearly point to management fail. Either chaos or greed rule in that company and the best thing to do is to get out ASAP.

user5994461 10y ago

You missed the most important lesson. 1. Don't work your ass off. Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens. 2. Never sacrifice your personal life for work. It aint worth it.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
So much truth in such a short comment.
porpoisemonkey 10y ago
> 1. Don't work your ass off. > Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens. I think this might be an over-generalization and that this is might only hold true for people who are farther along in their careers. I'm currently in year six of mine and I've been given a lot of great projects and early promotions (with subsequent pay jumps) from having been in the minority of people on a team that is working their ass off. These returns have, however, diminished with time. If I had to hazard a guess I think this is probably because a more junior engineer working their ass off can show quick and obvious improvements to the quality of your work and time management skills, which start off as near excrement and iterate to "ok" over time.
- potatolicious 10y ago
  My experience has been that it all comes down to who you're working for - some people make good on promises of a reward, most people do not. Importantly also - nearly all people will not offer a substantial reward unprompted. If you want something for working your ass of, you need to explicitly demand it, in specific terms (ex., don't ask for "a bonus", get a firm number). A great many managers (arguably, most managers) are in the habit of making promises for rewards that they are either unable or unwilling to keep. My suggestion for people is to figure out which kind of people you're dealing with early on in a job - observe carefully how casually they promise things, and how frequently they live up to these promises. Calibrate your expectations accordingly.
  - porpoisemonkey 10y ago
    > Importantly also - nearly all people will not offer a substantial reward unprompted. If you want something for working your ass of, you need to explicitly demand it, in specific terms (ex., don't ask for "a bonus", get a firm number). This is a really good point. This may be controversial to say but I suspect that this sort of assertive and open negotiation for future reward is part of the reason for the gender pay gap in software. For better or worse, I find that in most cases my male colleagues tend to layout more detailed expectations for compensation in advance of any salary renegotiation (promotion, raise, bonus, etc.) and to make themselves heard when they're not satisfied. In the interest of full disclosure I am male so it could also just be that I am inexperienced with other biases relating to gender.
- user5994461 10y ago
  I bet you would get wayyyy faster and higher promotions by leaving the company rather than staying. The world is full of people waiting, hopefully, for their 10% yearly raise, repeated over many years. They'll only realize after 5 years that they could have done the same progression by changing company after 2 years. >>> If I had to hazard a guess I think this is probably because a more junior engineer working their ass off can show quick and obvious improvements to the quality of your work and time management skills, which start off as near excrement and iterate to "ok" over time. Lemme tell you how it usually goes. The people at your company around you probably: 1) wont notice your improvements (determining good is hard and they ll forever remember you as the junior who just joined) 2) have zero management support (depends on politics 3) have the organization turned against you (typical raise blocked at X% per year top and only once a year). If one wants to get his progression noticed, one should go interview at other places and tell his achievements in front of interviewers who wants to listen to just that ;) An early stage career is handled by moving early and often, to the next opportunities: https://thehftguy.com/2017/01/23/career-advice-and-salary-negotiations-move-early-and-move-often/ https://thehftguy.com/2017/01/23/career-advice-and-salary-ne...
lightedman 10y ago
"Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens." As I sit here and hold 5,000 carats of Mount Baldy Sapphire, all spoken for (at $30/carat) I'm going to have to call shenanigans on that one. I work my ass off mining and I'm rewarded every day with a killer view, fresh air, and a distinct lack of idiot customers and bosses, and then I get to hold some of the rarest and most precious materials on this planet. "Never sacrifice your personal life for work. It aint worth it." You do almost exactly that mining. It's well worth it if you have even 1/10th of a clue of what you're doing.
- Ensorceled 10y ago
  I think there is an implied "for somebody else".
- user5994461 10y ago
  There is a difference between working for yourself keeping all the fruits of your labor to you, and working for a company where your reward is fixed by a contract irrelevant of what you actually do.
- ColanR 10y ago
  Where in the world do you do that for a living??
  - lightedman 10y ago
    Southern California.
- rhizome 10y ago
  I'm not sure what the parallel here is, is it that a big-ass sapphire has something to do with your personal life? Does "project got pushed another two months." happen in mining? Unused PTO? Do you ever take your hard-won rocks to the guy and he tells you no, they're actually only worth 1/10th what you thought?
  - lightedman 10y ago
whyileft 10y ago
> Especially, don't work your ass off as an employee in the United States expecting to be rewarded. It never happens. -FTFY Working for yourself or in more functional economies that actually have things like workers rights is a different story altogether.
- Sir_Substance 10y ago
  In my experience, better workers rights tend to make your life better regardless of whether you work your arse off or not. In fact, I would say that setting in place systems that push employees to work unsociably heavily and forsake family and life experience in order to be rewarded is a staple of countries with extremely toxic working cultures, such as japan and china. Employers in countries with good workers rights tend to react mostly with abject terror if they discover you've been, say, working weekends. They know what happens if the government or local unions get wind that unpaid weekend work might be some kind of defacto standard in a workplace.
acetoxy 10y ago
I've done both mistakes in the past 3 years. I've been on sick leave for 1.5 months now because of stress and I hate myself for doing this. I sleep 3-4 hours each night and I get panic attacks whenever I think about work. Well, now it's been so long that I don't even care but I'm feeling anxious as hell about coming back. I'm probably gonna kill myself soon.
- s5fs 10y ago
  I genuinely hope you don't kill yourself, feel free to PM if you wanna chat about whatever. A job is just a job, they come and go. We trick ourselves into making them seem far more important than they really are, but ultimately it's just a means to an end. It's so easy to lose sight of that when life gets busy. Things get better but you have to let time do it's thing too. Patience.
- abraham_s 10y ago
  >>>>I'm probably gonna kill myself soon If you are having such thoughts, please seek help. National Suicide prevention hotline Call 1-800-273-8255
- imauld 10y ago
  I understand life can be stressful, especially work but if you are looking for a sign not to kill yourself, this is it. You can send me an email at my username at gmail if you need to talk or call this number 1-800-273-8255
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  If you haven't done so while you've been out sick, please see a doctor or therapist for the stress. Heck, even if you've been to a doctor or therapist about this, please talk to them again so they know that so far, it isn't working. At this point, you can probably safely go to the ER and tell them you fear you'll kill yourself so that you'll get urgent help. ==== This stuff you are going through, it can get better. It doesn't last. You can learn to deal with panic attacks, you can change jobs, and so on.
- hluska 10y ago
  I can identify with how you feel because several years ago, I was in the same boat. I am generally averse to making promises, but in this case, I will make you one. This will get better. Anxiety is an absolutely horrible affliction and panic attacks are my personal definition of hell. The troubling part is that I understand how you feel. When panic attacks were part of my life, I often contemplated putting an end to everything. It wasn't that I hated life...it was that I hated the circumstances under which I had to live life. However, don't hate yourself. You were brave and intelligent enough to listen to your body. Your body screamed at you to stop and you listened. Be proud of yourself because frankly, lots of people like you don't listen to their bodies and die of heart attacks when they are in their 30s. Or, they don't listen to their bodies and develop addictions to alcohol or heavy drugs. You listened to yours and you started the path to getting better. Let time do its work because frankly my friend, this is going to take time. And please, don't kill yourself. I know that this job may seem like the be all and end all, but I promise you that it isn't. There are more jobs out there, and if software doesn't do it for you anymore, there are literally thousands of different careers out there. I believe in you, so I know that you can get through this, but you may need some help or, at the very least, a kind ear. My email address is in my profile. Please use it - I will never judge you and will keep anything you say to myself, unless you tell me about a specific plan to kill yourself. Then, I am sorry that I have to say this, but I will do whatever it takes to keep you from fulfilling that plan. Be safe. You are cared about.

chias 10y ago

> There is no 'perfect' time for leaving This is very, very true. It applies to pretty much any commitment that is bad for you: a bad job, a bad relationship, there's always a Very Important Reason not to do it right now. See also: https://xkcd.com/1768/ https://xkcd.com/1768/

utobi 10y ago

> What I learned from that is the fact that work never ever ends. Exactly this. In general, it is totally fine to have short bursts of overtime but longer periods clearly point to management fail. Either chaos or greed rule in that company and the best thing to do is to get out ASAP.