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Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)
- dingo_bat 10y agoLousy work culture that produces the best output in the world. If it is so bad why don't you stay in Switzerland and give up your American passport? Something must be making up for the competitive work culture. I wonder what that is.
- majewsky 10y agoIt's right in the article: > Finally, finally, after almost a decade abroad, my husband and I decided we needed to go home to see what home felt like, or if the United States even felt like home anymore.
- kingkawn 10y agoGoes to show what trusting an inhumane culture's concept of "best output" is worth
- mrweasel 10y ago>Lousy work culture that produces the best output in the world. It's that only if you ignore the output per capita and just views the countries?
- scissortest 10y ago> Something must be making up for the competitive work culture. I wonder what that is. Oh, I know: Neglected children growing up to be unhappy at "best" and sociopaths at worst, for one.
- supersaiyanverx 10y agoBest output? Perhaps you mean most? And perhaps you mean GDP and not output?
- alistairSH 10y agoSomething must be making up for the competitive work culture. I wonder what that is. You answered your own question. best output in the world You're defining "best output" as per capita GDP or something similar. But, money doesn't always buy happiness. Many European countries manage to maintain high GDP while also providing a work/life balance that allows citizens to enjoy themselves and live healthier, less stressful lifestyles.
- romanovcode 10y agoYeah, I hear this argument a lot - "There is a reason why FB, Twitter, etc. is not invented in EU". Well, TBH I don't give two about those companies. Also, what did average American citizen got from those companies succeeding? Probably nothing. Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather have good work-life balance then unicorns that do not even change my life.
- erikpukinskis 10y ago> what did average American citizen got from those companies succeeding? Probably nothing. How did you calculate that? I wouldn't even know where to start measuring the total effects of Twitter on average Americans. I imagine they are wide reaching.
- romanovcode 10y agoLet me put it this way: Would you rather work more and have twitter or work less and have no twitter?
- erikpukinskis 10y agoI like to work, but assuming my job was painful I'd rather work less and have no Twitter.
- rarec 10y ago>Lousy work culture that produces the best output in the world. I mean, look at the Great Wall of China. It's a wonder what you can get done when you start to treat your people as tools and nothing more.
- st3v3r 10y agoOh joy. We get to work ourselves to the bone, neglect our families and health to make someone else rich.
- germinalphrase 10y agoWhile this sounds lovely, can anyone with experience speak to the difficulty of finding sponsored work in Switzerland? For instance, my wife is a social worker in the U.S. and speaks conversational German - but this is not likely to be considered a "high need" type of job for which a company would hire a foreign worker.
- louisswiss 10y agoAs a non-EU/Swiss citizen you can only be employed in Switzerland if the company can demonstrate that no suitable EU/Swiss candidates could be found for the job role. Exactly how this works I am not too sure, but anecdotally it is very difficult unless you are in top-management or a highly specialised field.
- marktucker 10y agoThat's just to get the work visa. If you are married to a Swiss, for example, and get a visa via family reunion, companies can employ you without having to make this argument.
- arthur_sav 10y agoThe company must advertise the position in a EU forum for at least a month. If someone else wants to apply, they can.
- geodel 10y agoSo it seems there is no easy way I can move from writing CRUD apps in US with 2 weeks vacation policy to Switzerland and have 6 weeks of vacation. I would've ample time there to rant about crappy USA. Now I am stuck in US which allow third worlders like me to come and work in tech.
- petercooper 10y agoBut in Switzerland, my husband's company gave employees six weeks of vacation a year. And yet, I find people get used to it and consider it normal rather than a great thing. I give my employees 36 days of paid vacation per year (7.2 weeks) and, yep, got complaints the other day when I suggested making December 22nd a mandatory holiday day(!) :-)
- nwomack 10y agoI think the complaint here (if I understand you correctly) is that you are giving a vacation day and then making a certain day mandatory to use it. This practice is common among companies and extremely infuriating and in my opinion should be illegal. Better to have 35 days paid and make december 22nd a company holiday.
- mrweasel 10y agoIt's not that uncommon to include "company holidays" in "paid days off". Denmark has that as well, I get 5 weeks of vacation, and 5 days of vacation/days-off. My employer is free to "spend" the 5 days for me.
- myhrvold 10y agoSeems like in this case, how the company originally presents what you're getting matters. So, as you point out here, qualifying the # of days off w/ days that are set [that count as part of that allotment] would set expectations accordingly. Otherwise, still a good deal, but employees would feel misled if they want to use it other parts of the year.
- drdeadringer 10y agoMy first "real" job out of university had this. Every time I looked at how much PTO I had, I had to remember that it was dupe because I had to knock off Federal holidays in order to calculate how much PTO I could actually use whenever I wanted.
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- hueving 10y ago"Being rich ruined me for being poor and its lousy perks."
- chrisper 10y agoThis quote makes no sense. Yes, they made a lot more money in Switzerland maybe which allowed them to travel, but the same perks can be applied to working in any Western European country (e.g. Germany). You don't need to be rich to have good perks. In Germany you can work in a factory and live a comfortablish life.
- FabHK 10y agoLet me fix that for you: "Some societies have policies and tradeoffs that offer significant benefits to the average citizen, and that ruined me for living in other societies (even of similar wealth) that are not that progressive."
- hueving 10y agoSwitzerland will not allow you to join its society unless you bring a lot to the table to start (highly skilled worker). They only allow the most qualified candidates so they get to reap the benefits of that. It's the same thing as saying, "Working at Google has ruined me for working at other companies."
- st3v3r 10y agoYou say that as if the US is a poor country. It's not. There's no reason whatsoever that we couldn't have what Switzerland has, other than some assholes at the top see it as an impediment to their having all of the money.
- cven714 10y agoSlightly off topic, but the beauty of Switzerland was such a stark contrast to where I grew up in New Jersey that it almost made me angry. All these people, going about their daily lives in Switzerland seemingly oblivious to the fairy-tale landscape around them!
- jvreeland 10y agoJersey can be beautiful too : ) But remember the US is huge. If you like mountains, Checkout Colorado, Montana, Alaska, Wyoming, Washington and Oregon among others : )
- chrisper 10y agoRemember that people get used to the environment. People who live in the Bay Area don't care about the Golden Gate Bridge for example.
- throwaway91111 10y agoFor someone out of the area, what's the big deal? I much prefer the mackinac bridge for the sights AND the bridge itself.
- coldcode 10y agoThere are also palm trees in the Italian part of Switzerland, around Lake Lugano. Nice weather.
- personlurking 10y agoI think the same about Brazil. Endless amounts of natural beauty and it often seems to go unnoticed (or merely noticed but not fully appreciated).
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- geodel 10y agoWell for me a similar dream came true when I moved from third world city where people defecating in open all over, kids playing in overflowing garbage and folks living on sewage pipes to a Chicago suburb.
- Arizhel 10y agoAny time I meet or hear about someone like this, who comes back to the US after living in western Europe, I really have to wonder about them. Especially this one: she's just complaining a lot about life in America not being as great as in Switzerland. Well, that's no surprise. What did she expect? Even worse, she's just in time for Trumpism. She couldn't have picked a worse time to come back.
- johanbrook 10y agoThe U.S. is very behind many European countries in the work-life balance department. It's kinda surprising that America – with its liberal policies for private companies – is so backwards when it comes to caring about their employees. The points in the article could apply to policies/norms in Sweden as well. Here, we get at least 4 weeks of paid vacation per year, as well as some insurances and a very generous parental leave (1 year for each parent).
- sleavey 10y ago"Liberal policies for private companies" really means that companies have less regulation and red tape, and therefore have a less liberated workforce. One of the points the article makes is that the Swiss government have legal mandates on workplace benefits such as time off and maternity leave, which is the opposite of what some refer to as liberal, at least when talking about businesses as opposed to individuals.
- ThomPete 10y agoIn the US yes not in europe. Liberal means something different in europe
- robert_foss 10y ago> The points in the article could apply to policies/norms in Sweden as well. Here, we get at least 4 weeks of paid vacation per year No, mandatory EU minimums enforce at least 5 weeks of vacation.
- csomar 10y agoIn my opinion this is missing an important thing: Does the Swiss model scale? For example, the Singapore model can't scale. It's based on rich people and corporations arbitraging the international fiscal system. You can't have another Singapore without having another East Asia and West with it. Swiss is definitively a privileged place that is benefiting from the overall wealth of Europe and many other countries. We can't have the niceties they are having unless we have huge leaps in overall productivity around the world. Edit: To explain my point further. Let's say you have a Swiss watch factory that is relaying on export for 90% of its production. With this money it can afford hiring top researchers and paying very high wages even for low-skill positions. This wouldn't be possible if there wasn't a huge market to product this luxury good for (Europe, US and Asia).
- sleavey 10y agoThere's no reason why it can't scale, but one problem in implementing this kind of system is convincing the population to accept higher taxes (and Swiss taxes are, overall, still significantly higher than the US despite what the article seems to make out). It is, ultimately a case of the government taking more of your personal wealth to provide services to society as a whole, which flies in stark contrast to the traditional US approach.
- robertk 10y agoCan you explain? Why higher taxes? Can't it be a mixture of private enterprises replacing some equivalent public institutions from the Swiss setup? Even non-profits if you can reach critical mass on tithes, cf effective altruism. Seems doable if you have good rhetoric and get a movement going.
- sleavey 10y agoDoesn't it come down to the argument about whether a private company can run a service (on behalf of society) more efficiently than the government itself? The article makes this pretty clear - $3,000 for giving birth in a Swiss hospital plus much better care, or $30,000 for bare minimum care in the US. I very much doubt it costs more to run hospitals in the US - even with the liberal lawsuit culture. It's more likely in my mind that the Swiss government holds insurers and hospitals to a higher standard, and enforces more protection for the insured, than in the US. (I'm no expert though)
- deedubaya 10y agoI used to work for the US HQ for a Swiss owned company. I worked in both offices on occasion with close interaction with both Swiss and American employees (I'm American). This article is very spot on. What it doesn't mention much of, however, is the difference in what happens during working time. In a typical US office setting, water cooler talk, filing meaningless reports, etc is common. You'll probably have a guy who you're not really sure what he does. You simply don't see much of that in Swiss offices (at in my limited experiences, I'm sure there are exceptions). When it was time to work it was time to Fucking Work. If you're not adding value it is looked down upon. In the US, you kinda just shrug and go back to filing your TPS report.
- dennisnedry 10y agoThis is true for large corporations, but smaller startups that is not the case. Smaller companies have everybody wearing multiple hats. Nobody sits around, and if they do, it's time to ask them to leave.
- st3v3r 10y agoNot really. Startups can have people coasting along as well.
- manarth 10y agoDeja-vu. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544
- manarth 10y agoAnd in 2015 (although that source article has since disappeared): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816
- bsn54 10y agoVery nice article.I wish every country followed the swiss way of work life balance!
- geodel 10y agoI would especially exhort India and Bangladesh to work on this with highest priority.
- jeffdavis 10y agoComparisons between the US and European countries are often useless. Either they pick a rich European country that has restricted immigration for a long time, or they say "Western Europe" while ignoring many of the countries in Western Europe that have some real challenges (like unemployment). Germany or the UK might be reasonable comparison points. Not perfect, of course (still huge differences), but it's much more likely that there is a real lesson somewhere.
- hedwall 10y agoSwedens is quite similar and has (until recently) had a very liberal immigraiton policy.
- jeffdavis 10y agoSweden population 9.5M, less than 3% the size of US polulation. I'm glad they are so happy with their country, but not sure if it scales 30X. And regardless of policy, I suspect the actual immigration numbers (and affluence of immigrants) is much different than the US.
- bdavisx 10y ago>they pick a rich European country Aren't we (U.S.) the richest country in the world?
- jeffdavis 10y agoUS per capita GDP US$53K Swiss per capita GDP US$84K
- musha68k 10y agoSomewhat expected in the more conservative midwest (the author is comparing her Zürich experience with living in Chicago) but apparently "unlimited vacation" seems to become increasingly common in the Bay Area at least.
- anotherboffin 10y agoUnlimited vacation sounds nice, but from what little I read on it, it wasn't really unlimited. Rather, it seems to be based on what's acceptable at your workplace and how much work you can get done. Hopefully someone with first-hand experience or more knowledge will elaborate a bit on this.
- myhrvold 10y agoYes -- unlimited vacation is a perk of flexibility rather than number of days off. Since you're responsible for getting your work done, you can take any manner of time off provided that the results hold up. This past year, I prolly tallied anywhere from 4-6 weeks off, technically speaking. Unplugged though, a handful of days at most. (Otherwise, mostly on vacay but maybe a few hrs worth of work a day sprinkled in morning / evening.) Because I own my area of work + results though, during decent chunks of this time I still answer emails when I can, try to unblock people etc. So it means that I get to travel more and see other places, or work in other offices (would say 'remote' here but some are in places like NYC & Seattle so hardly remote in that sense of the word!) Then, when I am around town in San Francisco, I make a point to check in with people in person, often through the evenings. And work part of the time on Sat/Sun to unblock people if I need to review or provide someone else the context to do so. For my role I have made this work and love it, but this unlimited option is not for everyone. And there is a cap to how much you can realistically be away and still get things done.
- PaulRobinson 10y agoYour work/life balance sounds utterly horrific and I am glad I don't have "unlimited vacation" like this. I feel depressed just reading it.
- camperman 10y agoThere's another factor here that hasn't been mentioned: Switzerland is only a couple of hundred kilometres across. That makes a difference when it comes to public transport and other infrastructure like broadband. I laugh when I see case studies about high-speed broadband in Europe. Europe is small. If you put my country on top of Europe, the south-westernmost city would be in Portugal and the northernmost in Estonia. And the US is even bigger.
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- quotemstr 10y agoI don't want a work-life balance. Sure, the Swiss model is very attractive for a person in a certain phase of life with a certain attitude toward work --- one for whom work is something distinct from life. Me? I want the freedom to pour myself into something I love. I'd rather spend 60 hours per week using all of my faculties to produce something worthwhile than to spend 35 or 40 hours just trading my time for money, doing something I have to force myself to do, even if I can go swim with the swans on my break. I've seen people use the concept of "work-life balance" as an excuse to propose caps on the impact a single developer can have. These people want to live in a Harrison Bergeron world where my work beyond 40 hours wouldn't count so that they don't feel pressed to work more than 40 hours a week. I couldn't be more opposed. When I'm doing something I love, I always think about ways I can do it better. When I'm doing something I hate, no amount of work-life balance will compensate.
- _nalply 10y agoNothing prevents you to pour yourself into something in Switzerland.
- liveoneggs 10y agoI think having bones prevents this.
- eatplayrove 10y agoI will consider what you said distinctly from the Swiss vs other models problem (because it is only slightly relevant). I don't know how old you are, but I am assuming you are younger than me, and I would like to offer you some advice without (I hope) sounding patronizing. Work-life balance is not about what you love vs hate. There are not too many people hanging around in hacker news that hate what they do for work, otherwise they wouldn't be checking here most likely. I would even go ahead and venture to say, around 20% percent of the people love what they do. But work is not the only thing you can love. You can love playing the piano, spending time with your girlfriend trekking, regularly having dinner with your parents every Monday, running a few times a week so on and so forth. Your view of the word 'love' is extremely one-dimensional, and life is too short for that. If developing is the only thing that you love, be my guest. But do not restrict yourself to just that, if you have the financial means. Work-life balance is about the multi-dimensional aspect of life. You can (and in my opinion should) love many things, because there are so many things in life to love. Then work-life balance becomes about the maximization of an objective function whose variables are the hours you spend for each thing that you love, and the constraints involve (1) the minimum surplus of money you are OK with making given that you spend the hours in the variables, (2) the minimum amount of time you would like to spend for each thing, (3) the maximum amount you can spend. That's essentially life for everyone. The weights and the (1)+(2) constraints are dependent on the person (3) is a limitation of reality. People call the weights and (1)+(2) work-life balance. I hope this gives you a new perspective.