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I honestly don't get why they made the big compatibility-breaking move to Python 3 without using that opportunity to change things for better performance and no

by Pxtl 10y ago

I honestly don't get why they made the big compatibility-breaking move to Python 3 without using that opportunity to change things for better performance and no GIL.

vegabook 10y ago
this is the essence of the problem for Python's long term future. They've been so burned by the 2-to-3 mess that nobody will ever dare touch the fundamentals again. As you say, some of this stuff (performance, multicore) should have been slotted into 3 since it was breaking-change already, even if delaying it by a few years. Then everybody would have moved, pronto. Now, even if 3 finally snuffs 2 out, we'll be stuck with the fairly unsatisfactory 3 underlying architecture essentially forever.
- BuckRogers 10y ago
  Please don't encourage them. I'm fairly certain the CPython core dev team will take almost any suggestion like this as a challenge and break everyone's code again in Python4. They see it as stabbing back at those corporate freeloaders. Or at least that's the public front. I'd just like them to take lessons from Go and actually get unicode right. I'm far more interested in Grumpy. Python2 and Grumpy seems like more of a ace in the hole than Python3.
  - vegabook 10y ago
    Well said. Google hired Guido, and from being a big Python shop was so disenchanted with Unladen Swallow's abject failure that they invented a whole new language to replace it, and Guido became surplus to requirements. And the last vestiges of Python are now to be piped through Grumpy. Not a single mention of 3.x and Google in the same breath. Py27+Grumpy looks great.
njharman 10y ago
1) it was looked at and took too much effort. 2) Performance and GIL are things people who don't actually use Python complain about. In practice they are non-issues or have workable solutions.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Google was a major user of Python, and their solution to those issues was "build a whole new language". While I agree that on those points Python is good enough for many uses, it's inaccurate to say that all criticism of Python on those points is from people who haven't spent considerable time with Python on production.
dragonwriter 10y ago
As disruptive as it was, Py3 had fairly minor backwards compatibility breakage. Dropping the GIL would be many times more disruptive (specifically for C extensions, presumably it could be done with no effect on Python-code compatibility.) Aside from keeping the GIL, performance improvements have beenade throughout the 3.x line, AFAIK, and should be expected to continue.

by Pxtl 10y ago

I honestly don't get why they made the big compatibility-breaking move to Python 3 without using that opportunity to change things for better performance and no GIL.

vegabook 10y ago

this is the essence of the problem for Python's long term future. They've been so burned by the 2-to-3 mess that nobody will ever dare touch the fundamentals again. As you say, some of this stuff (performance, multicore) should have been slotted into 3 since it was breaking-change already, even if delaying it by a few years. Then everybody would have moved, pronto. Now, even if 3 finally snuffs 2 out, we'll be stuck with the fairly unsatisfactory 3 underlying architecture essentially forever.

BuckRogers 10y ago
Please don't encourage them. I'm fairly certain the CPython core dev team will take almost any suggestion like this as a challenge and break everyone's code again in Python4. They see it as stabbing back at those corporate freeloaders. Or at least that's the public front. I'd just like them to take lessons from Go and actually get unicode right. I'm far more interested in Grumpy. Python2 and Grumpy seems like more of a ace in the hole than Python3.
- vegabook 10y ago
  Well said. Google hired Guido, and from being a big Python shop was so disenchanted with Unladen Swallow's abject failure that they invented a whole new language to replace it, and Guido became surplus to requirements. And the last vestiges of Python are now to be piped through Grumpy. Not a single mention of 3.x and Google in the same breath. Py27+Grumpy looks great.

njharman 10y ago

1) it was looked at and took too much effort. 2) Performance and GIL are things people who don't actually use Python complain about. In practice they are non-issues or have workable solutions.

dragonwriter 10y ago
Google was a major user of Python, and their solution to those issues was "build a whole new language". While I agree that on those points Python is good enough for many uses, it's inaccurate to say that all criticism of Python on those points is from people who haven't spent considerable time with Python on production.

dragonwriter 10y ago

As disruptive as it was, Py3 had fairly minor backwards compatibility breakage. Dropping the GIL would be many times more disruptive (specifically for C extensions, presumably it could be done with no effect on Python-code compatibility.) Aside from keeping the GIL, performance improvements have beenade throughout the 3.x line, AFAIK, and should be expected to continue.