11 ms·

What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school? (2015)

116 points by iamjeff 10y ago

brookside 10y ago
*(2015)
pc86 10y ago
What does one do with a sociology degree, even one from Harvard? Edit: I didn't mean that to be as critical as it sounded.
- arbuge 10y ago
  Anything for 2 years, then MBA, then Wall Street.
  - pc86 10y ago
    I forgot about this path, you're right. A friend of a friend graduated from Penn with a degree in some fairly specific humanities field. English Comp or something like that (the point is that it was much more specific than "Psychology" or something). He worked at the school for a brief time, maybe a year, then got a graduate degree then went to Wall Street.
  - ithinkinstereo 10y ago
    Actually, the prevailing trend at Ivies the past few years is the following: Graduate --> 2 years at Wall Street / Management Consulting --> MBA --> Silicon Valley / Startups
- SurrealSoul 10y ago
  Probably advertisement analytics or something of the sort
- arethuza 10y ago
  Fairly easy to find some examples: http://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/pages/alumni-profiles http://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/pages/alumni-profiles
- codeddesign 10y ago
  As per UC Davis, here are your career choices: http://sociology.ucdavis.edu/undergraduate-program/career-options http://sociology.ucdavis.edu/undergraduate-program/career-op...
- akhilcacharya 10y ago
  Pretty much anything. Degree doesn't matter as much as people think. Institutions matter more IMO.
  - trendia 10y ago
    The data show quite the opposite: the degree matters more than the institution. An engineering degree from a top 50 school has a higher return than an arts/humanities degree from a top 5 institution. http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20150314_USC467_0.png http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/p...
    - utnick 10y ago
      why are there no dots for humanities for schools with lower than 20% accceptance rates? Most ivy schools have an acceptance rate lower than 10%
      - stephencanon 10y ago
        Because it would ruin their nice trend lines.
      - trendia 10y ago
        I am not sure, but it could be that the arts programs have a different acceptance rate than the engineering programs.
        akhilcacharya 10y ago
        Most top schools have general admission for undergrad programs.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Alex_Butters 10y ago
Even being a poor grad student at an Ivy feels like this. The undergrads are wealthy and the grad students cherish every dollar of their ~$30k salary while still sometimes do side work to get by since city's have rents set for the higher income undergrads. There was some resentment we had for our students to say the least.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  This article suggests that schools are taking an interesting step to avoid such resentment: White appreciates, for example, that Harvard gives low-income students free tickets to the freshman formal, but they have to pick up the tickets in a different line from everyone else. “It’s clear who is getting free/reduced tickets and who isn’t,” he says... This seems like it might be an effective strategy. Take the people who are living on the largess of others (e.g. grad students on a stipend, poor undergrads on financial aid) and give them constant reminders that they are there thanks to the contributions of others. Then perhaps they'll feel gratitude instead. In much the same way, my CEO likes to remind us that annoying as customers can sometimes be, that's where our salaries are coming from.
  - matthewmcg 10y ago
    The undergraduates with rich parents are also technically living off of the largess of others. A family probably feels more of an obligation to support their own children but it's not like the majority of undergraduates paying tuition are "self-made."
  - compliance_data 10y ago
    Speaking from personal experience, this would cause more resentment rather than gratitude. I worked more hours to ensure that I didn't have to wait in these types of lines wherever possible. I found that people with money were less likely to want to associate with you once they found out that your family didn't have any because it made them feel awkward.
  - ska 10y ago
    To a first approximation, everyone is there due to the contribution of others. Of course students on financial aid, etc., should feel gratitude. Surely other students shouldn't be high on the list of recipients. It does sound like an effective strategy - but for class reinforcement. It's a good way to generate resentment, not gratitude.
everyone 10y ago
Would be nice, if there is ever some kind of paywall or login-wall, if poster would just paste the plaintext as the 1st comment.
- Pamar 10y ago
  Would this be legal?
  - everyone 10y ago
    I'd say technically no, but what is these days?
- DanBC 10y ago
  There's a "web" link under the submission title. Click that, and then the first result should be what you want. Using an incognito window seems to be best.
- broysox 10y ago
  Incognito is a viable backup plan in this scenario.
Symbiote 10y ago
When I was accepted to one of the best universities in the UK I applied for the standard loans and grants from the government. I didn't get a grant: my parents earned about £1000 more than the threshold for one. I lived and socialised with people who did get grants. If anything, they seemed to have slightly more spare cash than I did. In any case, there were plenty of students with a similar amount of not-much-money. I couldn't afford to go backpacking round Central America, but I could go to occasional big rock concerts or a music festival. We couldn't afford to go to the fancy clubs in central London, but we could afford to go to the... less fancy ones, where drinks were £1 and your shoes stick to the floor. That was just as much fun :)
compliance_data 10y ago
Yep. I remember my parents spending more time talking to cafeteria workers, I didn't even think it was appropriate for them to meet my professors, nor did I think it was an option. Being weeded out from social circles was also painful. "Let's go downtown for dinner Saturday night", "Nope I'll meet up with you guys later, I've got something else going on."
- oppositelock 10y ago
  That's what struck me hard as well. I was a poor kid in a largely wealthy Ivy league school, there on scholarships and a whole lot of debt. There's no difference between you and the wealthy folks in class, your brain works the same as theirs. Socially, it's a whole other story. I could never afford to go out, and all my evenings were spent working at either a cafeteria or as a lab assistant, anything to pay the minimum payments on my loans. My classmates would invite me out with them for dinners and trips, but I never went, and eventually they stopped asking. My social circle became other students in similar situations, but it definitely made me feel like I didn't belong. This social stratification was also present in class, when people had to form up for groups for group projects, since those groups tended to form along social group boundaries. I don't regret going one bit, though. I have a great degree, paid off my debt, and have been working in preeminent silicon valley companies for more than 20 years now.
Callmenorm 10y ago
Should rich kids make an effort to help poor kids feel welcome, yes. However, the net feelings of everybody at Harvard should be excitement for the probably awesome future that they have after college and focus on getting the education that will make that more likely.
- lapsock 10y ago
  Daily interaction with people who are clearly in very different socioeconomic circles than you is so godamn exhausting. I studied with a bunch of rich kids when I was a child and I still have self-esteem problems 20 years later. Harvard is overrated anyway. You're not going to get a better education, you're just going to be around a lot of rich people.
sethammons 10y ago
I can relate. I did not go to an Ivy League (though, maybe I should have at least applied). I grew up poor and outside of town. No school activities, ever. I could barely get rides to AP exams and SATs. I had a kid at 15. I would steal food from the cafeteria and sell it cheaper to other students so I could afford to eat that night. I believed my only way out of poverty was a college degree. I worked my ass off over the summers to help float me through the year and kept a 4.2 GPA in high school. Got full ride scholarship to a local university. Got married. Got an apartment. Wife worked as a waitress, I scored a job as a student graphic designer working with the university's lead graphic designer in the media department. University for me: no activities. Ever. No traveling. Go to class. Go to work. Go home. Ace tests (mostly). Rinse, repeat for 4 years. I did not hang out with university classmates once. I could not afford to (I could hang out with childhood friends because "going out" was not in our shared vocabulary). The times spent on projects and small talk let me know how much of an outsider I was. I managed to finally get a beat up truck (could only be pop-started, electronics only worked in a hard left hand turn, and more awesomeness) by my second year, as opposed to the new Lexuses and BMWs that many of my classmates drove. I did miss out on something that I wish I would have been told more explicitly: university is not just about an education, it is about networking. I got zero networking done. I got the degree and got out. Because of my lack of networking, I believe my career was slower to build. Fast forward a bit. I'm doing fantastic. My oldest kid is now starting college (we have two others), I'm still with her mom, I make over 6 figures, and I have a job I throughly enjoy (I look forward to Mondays). My degree was important for me and I think was a large part of helping me get out of poverty. I never felt that I was a part of the university I attended. I enjoy my life story and it helps me appreciate the life I lead.
- acchow 10y ago
  Thanks for sharing your story. To get some more context, can I ask a few questions? 1) What part of the country was this in? 2) Population of town or metro area? 3) Your ethnicity and sex? 4) Are you religious?
  - sethammons 10y ago
    Google and some solid estimating should get you most of that if you are interested.
misterbowfinger 10y ago
I can relate to this, though my situation is a little weirder than most. My parents were immigrants and we were very poor when I was younger. They became doctors sometime around middle school, so we effectively shifted up to upper-middle class. Our quality of life changed in a few ways - didn't have to think about the cost of healthcare or school. But we also didn't start buying fancy clothes, cars, or food. My parents have never gone to fancy galas, and they don't exactly rub shoulders with the wealthy. I remember feeling very jarred when I first met "rich white people" in high school. It blew my mind. What did these people do? What are their families like? It truly fascinated me. This continued well into college where I met even more people from very, very wealthy backgrounds. I dated someone whose father was a dean of the school we went to, and I was extremely nervous when I visited their... mansion. Because I met a bunch of "rich white people" in high school, I became fairly acclimated to them. It really does taking meeting someone face-to-face to realize that they're not so different from you. I imagine it's the same when rich people meet very poor people. It makes me think that the issue isn't that poor students feel uncomfortable around rich students, but rather that the first time they ever meet rich students is in college. If they met earlier - perhaps in elementary or middle school - this discomfort would not be there.
- greggman 10y ago
  What's your definition of rich white people? Just curious. AFAIK I've never met any "rich white people" of the type portrayed in nearly every Hollywood movie about school (high school or collage). I'm not saying they don't exist just that I haven't met any so I'm wondering if maybe I did and didn't know it. I certainly didn't met any kids in high school that had any kind of money to flash (a fancy car or other expensive things to show off).
  - Retric 10y ago
    I worked near a 'nice' high school whose parking lot was filled with BMW's. Which is not really 'rich' but dual income in that area often meant 300+k family income by the time kids where in high school. Economically this meant a 5 year old car that might have been 50k new was not really unusual. In many ways the gap between 30k / year and 300k/year is larger than the gap between 300k / year and 3 million per year. PS: I actually know several people that inhered low to mid 7 figures. But, they are really more upper middle class than the kind of 'Rich' you see in a Hollywood film. But, plenty of people would consider that rich.
pacaro 10y ago
Wait, Boston Globe, for shame. Ana's height, bone structure, and hair are described, but we never get even a cursory description of Ted? When you start looking for this shit, it's everywhere.
- Lukassus 10y ago
  Well in the article is a photo of Ted so I think they assumed no description was needed.
- irishcoffee 10y ago
  > When you start looking for this shit You tend to find it, even if it isn't there.
Insanity 10y ago
This is one of the reasons why I do love the system here in Belgium. I studied at a university which is at the moment number 40 in the world university rankings (https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...) which is pretty good if you ask me. And the price I paid for each year was about 700 euro plus whatever the books cost. Came to a total of about 4500 euro (books included) for the 5 years that I studied there. I'm glad that I did not have to pay the rediculous prices they do in the UK or in the US, because my parents would not have been able to afford that. EDIT: And there is actually a system for parents whom do not meet the minimum income either, that the university covers part, or all, of the cost. I do not have experience with that though because even though my parents did not attend a university, their income was above the minimum to apply for that.
- bbctol 10y ago
  At elite schools in the US, the money spent on college is not the significant gap between those from wealthy or poor families, but the money spent before college (i.e., the background experiences they come in with) and the money spent outside of college (i.e., the experiences you can't engage in while your there.) To be clear, affording college is a real struggle for lots of Americans, but if you get into a top Ivy school, it's usually a much smaller burden than a second-tier one. They have big financial aid programs; I have a friend going to Harvard from a lower-class background, and their tuition is essentially nothing, but they feel extremely out of place.
dbg31415 10y ago
My experience going to an Ivy... If you are social, if you are smart, not a selfish asshole... people will like you, accept you, and most people realize that we don't pick our parents -- how much money you have in college doesn't matter. Going to an Ivy... it's not the academics that sets the alumni apart, it's the networking. You learn to judge your peers based on who has potential and who doesn't -- this is the elitism that a lot of people talk about. Some of that is based on money (clearly a kid who has billionaires for parents has a leg up), but a lot of it is based on the individual person. If you feel like a lack of money will hold you back... then it'll hold you back. If you don't... it won't. So how this plays out... mind you this was 20 years ago... but in my fraternity (which wasn't one that asked for parents' financial records) we had a checkbox on the form you turned in along with your dues, and it simply said, "I can't pay my dues this semester." I don't recall anyone scamming the system, and it was in place because we didn't want to discriminate against brothers who didn't have as much money, or who were going through a rough patch. I remember talking to a guy who had come to a bunch of our parties... he was dead set against rushing... I pulled him aside 1:1 and asked if it was a money thing... once we got past that he was in and became one of the officers a few years later. (I probably wouldn't recommend everyone join a fraternity, but they can offer a sort of extended family / support structure that's nice when you're away from home for the first time.) Another example... I had a weekly poker group... we started off playing for $20 in chips. We would invite people based on who we wanted to hang out with, smoke cigars with, drink with... and someone ended up bringing his roommate. Cool guy, we all loved him. He said he didn't have $20 to spare. Rather than just give him $20 (which would have solved the issue but made him feel like he didn't belong or was beholden to someone else) we just dropped the entrance fee and played for chores. 5 guys... The winner got 2 chores from the person in 5th place, and 1 from the person in 4th, and 3 from the person in 2nd. And similar allotments... I had to vacuum that kid's apartment and do his laundry after he beat me (and he had to do the same for me when I won). If you wanted to "buy back in" you could, but it cost you some outlandish dare... basically everyone would get to humiliate you in exchange for more chips. In the end the money wasn't at all important, we were still all just playing for pride. Final example... Textbooks have always been a bitch. Even 20 years ago. I'm sure it's worse now... but back then we'd line up classes with friends, form study groups (typically these transcended semesters), and then we could buy one book for 2-3 people. The added perk of this was we could share notes, do less work... cultivate that whole networking thing that was so important. If you were smart, took good notes... everyone wanted you in their study cluster. You could negotiate... if you had money or not... "Let's do this, just the 3 of us... I'll take notes 1/3 of the time but I don't want to pay for the book..." and the guy who took sloppy notes would say, "Sure, but how about you take notes 2/5ths of the time and I'll buy the books..." And anyway I remember a lot of people having little deals like this. Is every school different, sure. But I think it all goes back to internal perceptions. If you define yourself as ugly and fat... you won't get a date. If you define yourself as stupid and slow... you will get bad grades. If you define yourself as poor or struggling... life will be hard. But if you can just not think about that stuff... then you realize that nobody else cares about that stuff either. We're all too busy focusing on our own shit and own insecurities to worry about anything you have going on in your head.
zebrafish 10y ago
I'm having a hard time understanding the issue or being empathetic. If somebody invites you to go to dinner and a movie, why cant you explain that you cant afford it or would rather not spend the money? Would you rather them not invite you? I've always found that rich people are not trying to put you down by talking about their boats, clothes, or businesses. They just live with a different set of parameters that people can't relate to. I think it's wrong to expect Harvard to provide a "safe space" for poor people. We should instead expect everyone to respect each others differences. Rich, poor, jamaican, colombian... People are people. Instead of being self-conscious about what makes you different, embrace the differences and expand your world view.
- c0nfused 10y ago
  Not an ivy league attendee but I married into it. I admitted at an Ivy League gathering that I had gone to state school and my conversational partner looked at me as if I had suddenly changed, turned, and walked away without another word. Sure, it didn't hurt too bad at 25 with a good job and a mortgage. At 18 I can see that smarting a bit more than it did and I'm telling this to you almost a decade after the fact. Allowing people to form a club for people like them is completely okay, as is trying to not label them as "the poor kids". I don't disagree that people should strive to overcome but a large number of folks entering college are less prepared that you would hope for the social changes generally and I imagine that for the poor kid in the literal halls of power that would be enormously challenging and a little support isn't going to bankrupt the ivy league or hurt anyone getting some help to blend in.
- thex10 10y ago
  > I think it's wrong to expect Harvard to provide a "safe space" for poor people. Is anyone asking for this? What a disingenuous comment. > Instead of being self-conscious about what makes you different, embrace the differences and expand your world view. Sure. But that can be a risky endeavor. Embracing differences isn't all sunshine and roses. So what might practicing this mean in practice for the poor student. "Sure, I'll go socialize with you tonight and expand my world view!" Oh fuck, now I'm broke and can't pay for housing anymore. "Ok I'll party with you and do coke with you and expand my world view!" Wow we both bombed our finals, but my scholarship won't support me with this lower GPA, guess I won't see you in class next semester, bye.
ryandrake 10y ago
I went to a very high ranking, but not "Ivy League" MBA school, with a good mix of economic classes represented. There were the usual "in" and "out" groups you find in any institution. The cliques were, broadly: 1. Not-rich American students with massive loans to finance everything 2. International students 3. Already fairly wealthy consultants and bankers there just to "get their ticket punched" 4. A tiny handful of ultra-wealthy-and-well-connected Group 1 (me) and 2 tended to hang out together, spend all the time studying, clipped coupons, ate ramen noodles, never went out, and got ulcers worrying about whether they'd ever get a job after graduation that could pay off this gamble. Group 3 spent and partied more and really only worried that the cushy banking job they would inevitably get was less prestigious than the cushy banking job their peers would inevitably get. They would occasionally interact with us commoners. I have no idea what group 4 did, as they didn't have anything to do with any of us, but they seemed pretty nice and didn't seem to be worried about anything. Kind of aloof but not assholes. As someone who grew up in a rural mining town, I didn't exactly feel uncomfortable but there was definitely a sense that I was getting a glimpse into an alternate, parallel universe. Mostly people were really cool and there was a lot less "snootiness" than I expected. Just not a lot to talk about with someone who's economic situation was vastly different than yours, so people naturally gravitated towards others who were similar. I guess I learned that rich people aren't cartoon villains looking down on us while twirling their superior mustaches. They just live in a different world from us and they understand as little about our lives as we understand about theirs.
losteverything 10y ago
Wow. How years can give perspective. <poor kids sense their disadvantage. Oh how not true. It may feel like a disadvantage but everyone has some disadvantages. A kept child that never had to contribute to meeting their families bills can never understand what that is like. To not have the backstop of a bank account. Poor is not a indicator of effort for ivy-ers but a badge of success no kept young adult can ever experience. Just like families where the marriage failed, the children will never know a happy home. And the mostly unsaid sense of decision failure associated with divorces. Everyone has some disadvantages. Turn them into advantages. So my "advice" to a poor student is take your experience as a one-up to those around you that will never be able to know poor-mess. Most likely you earned your good future as it won't be given to you.
stanfordkid 10y ago
I went to Stanford. I was poor. I think young people are bad at peeling through the layers of superficial bullshit that mask most human interactions. Rich, Middle Class and Poor can all have screwed up (or awesome) lives in different ways... If you get to the core of it we all struggle but yes the day to day is different. I think you can always find "pockets" of people in all classes that are curious free thinkers trying to relate to people from different backgrounds -- especially at Ivy League schools. Unfortunately kids who are young are also insecure about surface things. We need to just push diversity in the dorms and fraternities/sororities because I don't think "economics" really has much to do with it unless you make your whole life about buying $200 shirts or going to fancy restaurants. I also think the high end universities should give poorer kids a social stipend -- it is a really bad thing if all the rich kids hang out together and all the poor kids hang out together. The whole point of the Ivy League is to put the best minds together and to build a bridge between old school wealth and talented youth.
swframe2 10y ago
Colleges should probably offer a summer class before freshman year to teach low income students the common sense ways to do well. The class should be taught by seniors who are also low income.
- sonabinu 10y ago
  'common sense'?
thegjp210 10y ago
I would recommend those interested in an international perspective on this to watch the below debate at the Oxford Union, which deals with class at Oxford. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IM6PGwjBSc&t=312s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IM6PGwjBSc&t=312s
chrismaeda 10y ago
This is what you have to do to become an ancestor.

116 points by iamjeff 10y ago

*(2015)

pc86 10y ago

What does one do with a sociology degree, even one from Harvard? Edit: I didn't mean that to be as critical as it sounded.

arbuge 10y ago
Anything for 2 years, then MBA, then Wall Street.
- pc86 10y ago
  I forgot about this path, you're right. A friend of a friend graduated from Penn with a degree in some fairly specific humanities field. English Comp or something like that (the point is that it was much more specific than "Psychology" or something). He worked at the school for a brief time, maybe a year, then got a graduate degree then went to Wall Street.
- ithinkinstereo 10y ago
  Actually, the prevailing trend at Ivies the past few years is the following: Graduate --> 2 years at Wall Street / Management Consulting --> MBA --> Silicon Valley / Startups
SurrealSoul 10y ago
Probably advertisement analytics or something of the sort
arethuza 10y ago
Fairly easy to find some examples: http://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/pages/alumni-profiles http://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/pages/alumni-profiles
codeddesign 10y ago
As per UC Davis, here are your career choices: http://sociology.ucdavis.edu/undergraduate-program/career-options http://sociology.ucdavis.edu/undergraduate-program/career-op...
akhilcacharya 10y ago
Pretty much anything. Degree doesn't matter as much as people think. Institutions matter more IMO.
- trendia 10y ago
  The data show quite the opposite: the degree matters more than the institution. An engineering degree from a top 50 school has a higher return than an arts/humanities degree from a top 5 institution. http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20150314_USC467_0.png http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/p...
  - utnick 10y ago
    why are there no dots for humanities for schools with lower than 20% accceptance rates? Most ivy schools have an acceptance rate lower than 10%
    - stephencanon 10y ago
      Because it would ruin their nice trend lines.
    - trendia 10y ago
      I am not sure, but it could be that the arts programs have a different acceptance rate than the engineering programs.
      - akhilcacharya 10y ago
        Most top schools have general admission for undergrad programs.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Alex_Butters 10y ago

Even being a poor grad student at an Ivy feels like this. The undergrads are wealthy and the grad students cherish every dollar of their ~$30k salary while still sometimes do side work to get by since city's have rents set for the higher income undergrads. There was some resentment we had for our students to say the least.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
This article suggests that schools are taking an interesting step to avoid such resentment: White appreciates, for example, that Harvard gives low-income students free tickets to the freshman formal, but they have to pick up the tickets in a different line from everyone else. “It’s clear who is getting free/reduced tickets and who isn’t,” he says... This seems like it might be an effective strategy. Take the people who are living on the largess of others (e.g. grad students on a stipend, poor undergrads on financial aid) and give them constant reminders that they are there thanks to the contributions of others. Then perhaps they'll feel gratitude instead. In much the same way, my CEO likes to remind us that annoying as customers can sometimes be, that's where our salaries are coming from.
- matthewmcg 10y ago
  The undergraduates with rich parents are also technically living off of the largess of others. A family probably feels more of an obligation to support their own children but it's not like the majority of undergraduates paying tuition are "self-made."
- compliance_data 10y ago
  Speaking from personal experience, this would cause more resentment rather than gratitude. I worked more hours to ensure that I didn't have to wait in these types of lines wherever possible. I found that people with money were less likely to want to associate with you once they found out that your family didn't have any because it made them feel awkward.
- ska 10y ago
  To a first approximation, everyone is there due to the contribution of others. Of course students on financial aid, etc., should feel gratitude. Surely other students shouldn't be high on the list of recipients. It does sound like an effective strategy - but for class reinforcement. It's a good way to generate resentment, not gratitude.

everyone 10y ago

Would be nice, if there is ever some kind of paywall or login-wall, if poster would just paste the plaintext as the 1st comment.

Pamar 10y ago
Would this be legal?
- everyone 10y ago
  I'd say technically no, but what is these days?
DanBC 10y ago
There's a "web" link under the submission title. Click that, and then the first result should be what you want. Using an incognito window seems to be best.
broysox 10y ago
Incognito is a viable backup plan in this scenario.

Symbiote 10y ago

When I was accepted to one of the best universities in the UK I applied for the standard loans and grants from the government. I didn't get a grant: my parents earned about £1000 more than the threshold for one. I lived and socialised with people who did get grants. If anything, they seemed to have slightly more spare cash than I did. In any case, there were plenty of students with a similar amount of not-much-money. I couldn't afford to go backpacking round Central America, but I could go to occasional big rock concerts or a music festival. We couldn't afford to go to the fancy clubs in central London, but we could afford to go to the... less fancy ones, where drinks were £1 and your shoes stick to the floor. That was just as much fun :)

compliance_data 10y ago

Yep. I remember my parents spending more time talking to cafeteria workers, I didn't even think it was appropriate for them to meet my professors, nor did I think it was an option. Being weeded out from social circles was also painful. "Let's go downtown for dinner Saturday night", "Nope I'll meet up with you guys later, I've got something else going on."

oppositelock 10y ago
That's what struck me hard as well. I was a poor kid in a largely wealthy Ivy league school, there on scholarships and a whole lot of debt. There's no difference between you and the wealthy folks in class, your brain works the same as theirs. Socially, it's a whole other story. I could never afford to go out, and all my evenings were spent working at either a cafeteria or as a lab assistant, anything to pay the minimum payments on my loans. My classmates would invite me out with them for dinners and trips, but I never went, and eventually they stopped asking. My social circle became other students in similar situations, but it definitely made me feel like I didn't belong. This social stratification was also present in class, when people had to form up for groups for group projects, since those groups tended to form along social group boundaries. I don't regret going one bit, though. I have a great degree, paid off my debt, and have been working in preeminent silicon valley companies for more than 20 years now.

Callmenorm 10y ago

Should rich kids make an effort to help poor kids feel welcome, yes. However, the net feelings of everybody at Harvard should be excitement for the probably awesome future that they have after college and focus on getting the education that will make that more likely.

lapsock 10y ago
Daily interaction with people who are clearly in very different socioeconomic circles than you is so godamn exhausting. I studied with a bunch of rich kids when I was a child and I still have self-esteem problems 20 years later. Harvard is overrated anyway. You're not going to get a better education, you're just going to be around a lot of rich people.

sethammons 10y ago

I can relate. I did not go to an Ivy League (though, maybe I should have at least applied). I grew up poor and outside of town. No school activities, ever. I could barely get rides to AP exams and SATs. I had a kid at 15. I would steal food from the cafeteria and sell it cheaper to other students so I could afford to eat that night. I believed my only way out of poverty was a college degree. I worked my ass off over the summers to help float me through the year and kept a 4.2 GPA in high school. Got full ride scholarship to a local university. Got married. Got an apartment. Wife worked as a waitress, I scored a job as a student graphic designer working with the university's lead graphic designer in the media department. University for me: no activities. Ever. No traveling. Go to class. Go to work. Go home. Ace tests (mostly). Rinse, repeat for 4 years. I did not hang out with university classmates once. I could not afford to (I could hang out with childhood friends because "going out" was not in our shared vocabulary). The times spent on projects and small talk let me know how much of an outsider I was. I managed to finally get a beat up truck (could only be pop-started, electronics only worked in a hard left hand turn, and more awesomeness) by my second year, as opposed to the new Lexuses and BMWs that many of my classmates drove. I did miss out on something that I wish I would have been told more explicitly: university is not just about an education, it is about networking. I got zero networking done. I got the degree and got out. Because of my lack of networking, I believe my career was slower to build. Fast forward a bit. I'm doing fantastic. My oldest kid is now starting college (we have two others), I'm still with her mom, I make over 6 figures, and I have a job I throughly enjoy (I look forward to Mondays). My degree was important for me and I think was a large part of helping me get out of poverty. I never felt that I was a part of the university I attended. I enjoy my life story and it helps me appreciate the life I lead.

acchow 10y ago
Thanks for sharing your story. To get some more context, can I ask a few questions? 1) What part of the country was this in? 2) Population of town or metro area? 3) Your ethnicity and sex? 4) Are you religious?
- sethammons 10y ago
  Google and some solid estimating should get you most of that if you are interested.

misterbowfinger 10y ago

I can relate to this, though my situation is a little weirder than most. My parents were immigrants and we were very poor when I was younger. They became doctors sometime around middle school, so we effectively shifted up to upper-middle class. Our quality of life changed in a few ways - didn't have to think about the cost of healthcare or school. But we also didn't start buying fancy clothes, cars, or food. My parents have never gone to fancy galas, and they don't exactly rub shoulders with the wealthy. I remember feeling very jarred when I first met "rich white people" in high school. It blew my mind. What did these people do? What are their families like? It truly fascinated me. This continued well into college where I met even more people from very, very wealthy backgrounds. I dated someone whose father was a dean of the school we went to, and I was extremely nervous when I visited their... mansion. Because I met a bunch of "rich white people" in high school, I became fairly acclimated to them. It really does taking meeting someone face-to-face to realize that they're not so different from you. I imagine it's the same when rich people meet very poor people. It makes me think that the issue isn't that poor students feel uncomfortable around rich students, but rather that the first time they ever meet rich students is in college. If they met earlier - perhaps in elementary or middle school - this discomfort would not be there.

greggman 10y ago
What's your definition of rich white people? Just curious. AFAIK I've never met any "rich white people" of the type portrayed in nearly every Hollywood movie about school (high school or collage). I'm not saying they don't exist just that I haven't met any so I'm wondering if maybe I did and didn't know it. I certainly didn't met any kids in high school that had any kind of money to flash (a fancy car or other expensive things to show off).
- Retric 10y ago
  I worked near a 'nice' high school whose parking lot was filled with BMW's. Which is not really 'rich' but dual income in that area often meant 300+k family income by the time kids where in high school. Economically this meant a 5 year old car that might have been 50k new was not really unusual. In many ways the gap between 30k / year and 300k/year is larger than the gap between 300k / year and 3 million per year. PS: I actually know several people that inhered low to mid 7 figures. But, they are really more upper middle class than the kind of 'Rich' you see in a Hollywood film. But, plenty of people would consider that rich.

pacaro 10y ago

Wait, Boston Globe, for shame. Ana's height, bone structure, and hair are described, but we never get even a cursory description of Ted? When you start looking for this shit, it's everywhere.

Lukassus 10y ago
Well in the article is a photo of Ted so I think they assumed no description was needed.
irishcoffee 10y ago
> When you start looking for this shit You tend to find it, even if it isn't there.

Insanity 10y ago

This is one of the reasons why I do love the system here in Belgium. I studied at a university which is at the moment number 40 in the world university rankings (https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...) which is pretty good if you ask me. And the price I paid for each year was about 700 euro plus whatever the books cost. Came to a total of about 4500 euro (books included) for the 5 years that I studied there. I'm glad that I did not have to pay the rediculous prices they do in the UK or in the US, because my parents would not have been able to afford that. EDIT: And there is actually a system for parents whom do not meet the minimum income either, that the university covers part, or all, of the cost. I do not have experience with that though because even though my parents did not attend a university, their income was above the minimum to apply for that.

bbctol 10y ago
At elite schools in the US, the money spent on college is not the significant gap between those from wealthy or poor families, but the money spent before college (i.e., the background experiences they come in with) and the money spent outside of college (i.e., the experiences you can't engage in while your there.) To be clear, affording college is a real struggle for lots of Americans, but if you get into a top Ivy school, it's usually a much smaller burden than a second-tier one. They have big financial aid programs; I have a friend going to Harvard from a lower-class background, and their tuition is essentially nothing, but they feel extremely out of place.

dbg31415 10y ago

My experience going to an Ivy... If you are social, if you are smart, not a selfish asshole... people will like you, accept you, and most people realize that we don't pick our parents -- how much money you have in college doesn't matter. Going to an Ivy... it's not the academics that sets the alumni apart, it's the networking. You learn to judge your peers based on who has potential and who doesn't -- this is the elitism that a lot of people talk about. Some of that is based on money (clearly a kid who has billionaires for parents has a leg up), but a lot of it is based on the individual person. If you feel like a lack of money will hold you back... then it'll hold you back. If you don't... it won't. So how this plays out... mind you this was 20 years ago... but in my fraternity (which wasn't one that asked for parents' financial records) we had a checkbox on the form you turned in along with your dues, and it simply said, "I can't pay my dues this semester." I don't recall anyone scamming the system, and it was in place because we didn't want to discriminate against brothers who didn't have as much money, or who were going through a rough patch. I remember talking to a guy who had come to a bunch of our parties... he was dead set against rushing... I pulled him aside 1:1 and asked if it was a money thing... once we got past that he was in and became one of the officers a few years later. (I probably wouldn't recommend everyone join a fraternity, but they can offer a sort of extended family / support structure that's nice when you're away from home for the first time.) Another example... I had a weekly poker group... we started off playing for $20 in chips. We would invite people based on who we wanted to hang out with, smoke cigars with, drink with... and someone ended up bringing his roommate. Cool guy, we all loved him. He said he didn't have $20 to spare. Rather than just give him $20 (which would have solved the issue but made him feel like he didn't belong or was beholden to someone else) we just dropped the entrance fee and played for chores. 5 guys... The winner got 2 chores from the person in 5th place, and 1 from the person in 4th, and 3 from the person in 2nd. And similar allotments... I had to vacuum that kid's apartment and do his laundry after he beat me (and he had to do the same for me when I won). If you wanted to "buy back in" you could, but it cost you some outlandish dare... basically everyone would get to humiliate you in exchange for more chips. In the end the money wasn't at all important, we were still all just playing for pride. Final example... Textbooks have always been a bitch. Even 20 years ago. I'm sure it's worse now... but back then we'd line up classes with friends, form study groups (typically these transcended semesters), and then we could buy one book for 2-3 people. The added perk of this was we could share notes, do less work... cultivate that whole networking thing that was so important. If you were smart, took good notes... everyone wanted you in their study cluster. You could negotiate... if you had money or not... "Let's do this, just the 3 of us... I'll take notes 1/3 of the time but I don't want to pay for the book..." and the guy who took sloppy notes would say, "Sure, but how about you take notes 2/5ths of the time and I'll buy the books..." And anyway I remember a lot of people having little deals like this. Is every school different, sure. But I think it all goes back to internal perceptions. If you define yourself as ugly and fat... you won't get a date. If you define yourself as stupid and slow... you will get bad grades. If you define yourself as poor or struggling... life will be hard. But if you can just not think about that stuff... then you realize that nobody else cares about that stuff either. We're all too busy focusing on our own shit and own insecurities to worry about anything you have going on in your head.

zebrafish 10y ago

I'm having a hard time understanding the issue or being empathetic. If somebody invites you to go to dinner and a movie, why cant you explain that you cant afford it or would rather not spend the money? Would you rather them not invite you? I've always found that rich people are not trying to put you down by talking about their boats, clothes, or businesses. They just live with a different set of parameters that people can't relate to. I think it's wrong to expect Harvard to provide a "safe space" for poor people. We should instead expect everyone to respect each others differences. Rich, poor, jamaican, colombian... People are people. Instead of being self-conscious about what makes you different, embrace the differences and expand your world view.

c0nfused 10y ago
Not an ivy league attendee but I married into it. I admitted at an Ivy League gathering that I had gone to state school and my conversational partner looked at me as if I had suddenly changed, turned, and walked away without another word. Sure, it didn't hurt too bad at 25 with a good job and a mortgage. At 18 I can see that smarting a bit more than it did and I'm telling this to you almost a decade after the fact. Allowing people to form a club for people like them is completely okay, as is trying to not label them as "the poor kids". I don't disagree that people should strive to overcome but a large number of folks entering college are less prepared that you would hope for the social changes generally and I imagine that for the poor kid in the literal halls of power that would be enormously challenging and a little support isn't going to bankrupt the ivy league or hurt anyone getting some help to blend in.
thex10 10y ago
> I think it's wrong to expect Harvard to provide a "safe space" for poor people. Is anyone asking for this? What a disingenuous comment. > Instead of being self-conscious about what makes you different, embrace the differences and expand your world view. Sure. But that can be a risky endeavor. Embracing differences isn't all sunshine and roses. So what might practicing this mean in practice for the poor student. "Sure, I'll go socialize with you tonight and expand my world view!" Oh fuck, now I'm broke and can't pay for housing anymore. "Ok I'll party with you and do coke with you and expand my world view!" Wow we both bombed our finals, but my scholarship won't support me with this lower GPA, guess I won't see you in class next semester, bye.

ryandrake 10y ago

I went to a very high ranking, but not "Ivy League" MBA school, with a good mix of economic classes represented. There were the usual "in" and "out" groups you find in any institution. The cliques were, broadly: 1. Not-rich American students with massive loans to finance everything 2. International students 3. Already fairly wealthy consultants and bankers there just to "get their ticket punched" 4. A tiny handful of ultra-wealthy-and-well-connected Group 1 (me) and 2 tended to hang out together, spend all the time studying, clipped coupons, ate ramen noodles, never went out, and got ulcers worrying about whether they'd ever get a job after graduation that could pay off this gamble. Group 3 spent and partied more and really only worried that the cushy banking job they would inevitably get was less prestigious than the cushy banking job their peers would inevitably get. They would occasionally interact with us commoners. I have no idea what group 4 did, as they didn't have anything to do with any of us, but they seemed pretty nice and didn't seem to be worried about anything. Kind of aloof but not assholes. As someone who grew up in a rural mining town, I didn't exactly feel uncomfortable but there was definitely a sense that I was getting a glimpse into an alternate, parallel universe. Mostly people were really cool and there was a lot less "snootiness" than I expected. Just not a lot to talk about with someone who's economic situation was vastly different than yours, so people naturally gravitated towards others who were similar. I guess I learned that rich people aren't cartoon villains looking down on us while twirling their superior mustaches. They just live in a different world from us and they understand as little about our lives as we understand about theirs.

losteverything 10y ago

Wow. How years can give perspective. <poor kids sense their disadvantage. Oh how not true. It may feel like a disadvantage but everyone has some disadvantages. A kept child that never had to contribute to meeting their families bills can never understand what that is like. To not have the backstop of a bank account. Poor is not a indicator of effort for ivy-ers but a badge of success no kept young adult can ever experience. Just like families where the marriage failed, the children will never know a happy home. And the mostly unsaid sense of decision failure associated with divorces. Everyone has some disadvantages. Turn them into advantages. So my "advice" to a poor student is take your experience as a one-up to those around you that will never be able to know poor-mess. Most likely you earned your good future as it won't be given to you.

stanfordkid 10y ago

I went to Stanford. I was poor. I think young people are bad at peeling through the layers of superficial bullshit that mask most human interactions. Rich, Middle Class and Poor can all have screwed up (or awesome) lives in different ways... If you get to the core of it we all struggle but yes the day to day is different. I think you can always find "pockets" of people in all classes that are curious free thinkers trying to relate to people from different backgrounds -- especially at Ivy League schools. Unfortunately kids who are young are also insecure about surface things. We need to just push diversity in the dorms and fraternities/sororities because I don't think "economics" really has much to do with it unless you make your whole life about buying $200 shirts or going to fancy restaurants. I also think the high end universities should give poorer kids a social stipend -- it is a really bad thing if all the rich kids hang out together and all the poor kids hang out together. The whole point of the Ivy League is to put the best minds together and to build a bridge between old school wealth and talented youth.

swframe2 10y ago

Colleges should probably offer a summer class before freshman year to teach low income students the common sense ways to do well. The class should be taught by seniors who are also low income.

sonabinu 10y ago
'common sense'?

thegjp210 10y ago

I would recommend those interested in an international perspective on this to watch the below debate at the Oxford Union, which deals with class at Oxford. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IM6PGwjBSc&t=312s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IM6PGwjBSc&t=312s

chrismaeda 10y ago

This is what you have to do to become an ancestor.