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Another classic anti-utopia becoming relevant today is 'Brave New World' by Huxley. See brilliant comparison with '1984' on comic [1] which summarizes Neil Post

by zczc 10y ago

Another classic anti-utopia becoming relevant today is 'Brave New World' by Huxley. See brilliant comparison with '1984' on comic [1] which summarizes Neil Postman's book 'Amusing Ourselves to Death'. [1]: http://highexistence.com/amusing-ourselves-to-death-huxley-vs-orwell/ http://highexistence.com/amusing-ourselves-to-death-huxley-v...

htaunay 10y ago
I can't recommend "Amusing Ourselves to Death" enough, especially in the light of the most recent election processes the world is witnessing. Neil Postman's thesis is both timely and - unfortunately - eerie.
Arizhel 10y ago
This is an interesting comic, but I'd like to point out that becoming a society concerned with triviality is nothing new. Just look at the crap they were watching on TV in the 50s and 60s. And even if you go back in time to before TVs, there was plenty of crap that people occupied themselves with. It's just a lot easier now since so many of us no longer have to struggle just to survive every day. Wishing for the entire population to be highly educated and interested in important matters is, I think, a fool's errand. You're never going to get that from people unless you start culling less-intelligent people, which obviously isn't a good idea for many reasons.
- fnl 10y ago
  Which begs the question: Is modern's "occupied with crap" better, equal, or worse than the ancient "struggle to survive"? While in the measurable numbers game, the world certainly has become a better place (less child deaths, more literacy, longer life expectancy etc.), the actual question to ask oneself is if those numbers indeed are good proxies for a "better" world or life. Is living longer, assisted by mechanical and pharmaceutical products plus surgical procedures, really that great? In general, we now are working more hours then ever before in history, and hence have less time for being creative, having hobbies, or simply to behold one of "Goethe's moments," because we always are in a hurry. Are we really happier, and even if we were, is that maybe only due to every second adult over 40 or 50 using anti-depressants? Actually measuring if we are indeed living in a "better world" or a "better life" is very hard to do objectively with the parameters we have, and I honestly doubt it is possible. In the end, I believe the answer probably is: In many cases, it depends more on what you make of the time you were given than in which year you were born.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    I really don't think there's any way to easily answer this. So much depends on the particular person (and who you're comparing them to) and their particular circumstances, plus your own perspective and your own values which are subjective. I do think you have factual errors here though. We are not "working more hours than ever before in history". That is blatantly wrong. Go back 100 years and look at what lower-class people put up with: there was no such thing as a "weekend" or a 40-hour work week; those are relatively new inventions. Factory workers in America in the early 20th century had truly horrible lives and working conditions, including horribly long hours (not to mention child labor). We have more free time now than ever, in general (unless you're comparing to some privileged rich person in the past), though it's probably not changed that much over the last 50 years since we standardized on 40-hour work weeks. There's definitely pockets of society that aren't doing that great, working 2 jobs, etc., but that's not unusual; there's always been people on the fringe like that. I really think you're comparing modern life to some kind of rose-tinted and false romantic vision of the past as portrayed in fiction. Are we happier? Who knows. I think that for much of the population, there wasn't much time to worry about that in the past 100+ years ago, nor did they live all that long due to disease and poor health. Now we have more freedom to contemplate these things. This doesn't mean we couldn't use more free time, plus a way of freeing ourselves from financial strain which I do believe causes a lot of that antidepressant use. How much of our activities are shaped by financial pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" (or to stay in "nice" neighborhoods)?
    - fnl 10y ago
      Re. work hours; Right, the Industrial Revolution had quite many work hours, possibly even "peak" hours for some regions, particularly central Europe and the US. However, prior to that, research says "we" worked less than "we" do today [1]. But yes, 1880s were probably peak "worst-time", apart from some notorious companies today :-). And, work-hours should be compared and considered globally, not just the niceties that are found in some parts of Europe, maybe. I think many industrial (slave-) workers in Asian countries like China can be assumed to work far more than what they did when they were farmers or hunter-gatherers or whatever prior society they had, and probably work even more than the workers of the Industrial Revolution, too. So I really think you are comparing German and French minimalist work hours to the "Western-world" worst case, the Industrial Revolution ~150 years ago, without actually contemplating either a global view or considering other times. Re. being happier; Again, if you try to look back more than 100-200 years ago, things seem to have been quite different otherwise. Just take the Greek philosophers, for examples. They would not have flourished without "time to think", one might argue. Also, is that modern slave-worker in a Chinese factory really happier than his great grandfather was 100 ago? Thinking globally, I think there is enough evidence we might be unhappier than ever - mostly, thanks to globalization... [1] https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_...
zeveb 10y ago
That's the thing: 1984 is North Korea, while Brave New World is the entire Western world. The latter was always scarier to me because someone will eventually rebel against a dictatorship of fear (it'll happen in NK someday), but no-one will ever defeat a dictatorship of mindless pleasure.
- rzhikharevich 10y ago
  I think the West is both Brave New World (consumer society) and [partially] 1984 (mass surveillance by three-letter agencies).

by zczc 10y ago

htaunay 10y ago

I can't recommend "Amusing Ourselves to Death" enough, especially in the light of the most recent election processes the world is witnessing. Neil Postman's thesis is both timely and - unfortunately - eerie.

Arizhel 10y ago

This is an interesting comic, but I'd like to point out that becoming a society concerned with triviality is nothing new. Just look at the crap they were watching on TV in the 50s and 60s. And even if you go back in time to before TVs, there was plenty of crap that people occupied themselves with. It's just a lot easier now since so many of us no longer have to struggle just to survive every day. Wishing for the entire population to be highly educated and interested in important matters is, I think, a fool's errand. You're never going to get that from people unless you start culling less-intelligent people, which obviously isn't a good idea for many reasons.

fnl 10y ago
Which begs the question: Is modern's "occupied with crap" better, equal, or worse than the ancient "struggle to survive"? While in the measurable numbers game, the world certainly has become a better place (less child deaths, more literacy, longer life expectancy etc.), the actual question to ask oneself is if those numbers indeed are good proxies for a "better" world or life. Is living longer, assisted by mechanical and pharmaceutical products plus surgical procedures, really that great? In general, we now are working more hours then ever before in history, and hence have less time for being creative, having hobbies, or simply to behold one of "Goethe's moments," because we always are in a hurry. Are we really happier, and even if we were, is that maybe only due to every second adult over 40 or 50 using anti-depressants? Actually measuring if we are indeed living in a "better world" or a "better life" is very hard to do objectively with the parameters we have, and I honestly doubt it is possible. In the end, I believe the answer probably is: In many cases, it depends more on what you make of the time you were given than in which year you were born.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  I really don't think there's any way to easily answer this. So much depends on the particular person (and who you're comparing them to) and their particular circumstances, plus your own perspective and your own values which are subjective. I do think you have factual errors here though. We are not "working more hours than ever before in history". That is blatantly wrong. Go back 100 years and look at what lower-class people put up with: there was no such thing as a "weekend" or a 40-hour work week; those are relatively new inventions. Factory workers in America in the early 20th century had truly horrible lives and working conditions, including horribly long hours (not to mention child labor). We have more free time now than ever, in general (unless you're comparing to some privileged rich person in the past), though it's probably not changed that much over the last 50 years since we standardized on 40-hour work weeks. There's definitely pockets of society that aren't doing that great, working 2 jobs, etc., but that's not unusual; there's always been people on the fringe like that. I really think you're comparing modern life to some kind of rose-tinted and false romantic vision of the past as portrayed in fiction. Are we happier? Who knows. I think that for much of the population, there wasn't much time to worry about that in the past 100+ years ago, nor did they live all that long due to disease and poor health. Now we have more freedom to contemplate these things. This doesn't mean we couldn't use more free time, plus a way of freeing ourselves from financial strain which I do believe causes a lot of that antidepressant use. How much of our activities are shaped by financial pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" (or to stay in "nice" neighborhoods)?
  - fnl 10y ago
    Re. work hours; Right, the Industrial Revolution had quite many work hours, possibly even "peak" hours for some regions, particularly central Europe and the US. However, prior to that, research says "we" worked less than "we" do today [1]. But yes, 1880s were probably peak "worst-time", apart from some notorious companies today :-). And, work-hours should be compared and considered globally, not just the niceties that are found in some parts of Europe, maybe. I think many industrial (slave-) workers in Asian countries like China can be assumed to work far more than what they did when they were farmers or hunter-gatherers or whatever prior society they had, and probably work even more than the workers of the Industrial Revolution, too. So I really think you are comparing German and French minimalist work hours to the "Western-world" worst case, the Industrial Revolution ~150 years ago, without actually contemplating either a global view or considering other times. Re. being happier; Again, if you try to look back more than 100-200 years ago, things seem to have been quite different otherwise. Just take the Greek philosophers, for examples. They would not have flourished without "time to think", one might argue. Also, is that modern slave-worker in a Chinese factory really happier than his great grandfather was 100 ago? Thinking globally, I think there is enough evidence we might be unhappier than ever - mostly, thanks to globalization... [1] https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_...

zeveb 10y ago

That's the thing: 1984 is North Korea, while Brave New World is the entire Western world. The latter was always scarier to me because someone will eventually rebel against a dictatorship of fear (it'll happen in NK someday), but no-one will ever defeat a dictatorship of mindless pleasure.

rzhikharevich 10y ago
I think the West is both Brave New World (consumer society) and [partially] 1984 (mass surveillance by three-letter agencies).