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> There used to be 4B American chestnut trees, but they all disappeared Not long ago this would have been rendered as, "There once were four billion American c

by lutusp 10y ago

> There used to be 4B American chestnut trees, but they all disappeared Not long ago this would have been rendered as, "There once were four billion American chestnut trees, all now gone." People are no longer learning how to write, they're learning how to type.

CalRobert 10y ago
Can you elaborate? The title, as presented here, is nothing spectacular, but it's not necessarily inadequate to the task. Also, the "all now gone" phrase in your alternate strikes me as somewhat awkward. While reading your version I also wondered why you might go with "There once were" rather than "There were once"? We all have our own pet peeves, though. I weep at the loss of the subjunctive in English (For most usages it's "I wish I WERE there", not "I wish I WAS there", dammit!!!)
- lutusp 10y ago
  > The title, as presented here, is nothing spectacular, but it's not necessarily inadequate to the task. I just see too many uses of "There used to be", which to me is a crude way to concatenate two stock phrases without reflection, but in a awkward way that grates on my ear. Also I think Strunk & White's concision emphasis still rings true. > I also wondered why you might go with "There once were" rather than "There were once"? Voicing the candidates shows the difference. I imagine speaking anything I write, which reveals phrasings that would be hard to say out loud. > We all have our own pet peeves, though. I weep at the loss of the subjunctive in English (For most usages it's "I wish I WERE there", not "I wish I WAS there", dammit!!!) I have a funny story about that. A depressed child enters the kitchen and says, "I wish I was dead!" The child's mother says, "Oh no! Not that! Don't you mean 'I wish I were dead'?" :) > Also, the "all now gone" phrase in your alternate strikes me as somewhat awkward. Perhaps, but in my view not compared to "They all disappeared," which suggests proactive agency (did they run away?) rather than passive fate.
  - CalRobert 10y ago
    'Perhaps, but in my view not compared to "They all disappeared," which suggests proactive agency (did they run away?) rather than passive fate' Ah, I see your point. Sadly I think a generation or two of teachers maniacally chastising their students for ever using the passive form could have something to do with this. Even in this forum, you'll find plenty of people saying that all writing need be direct, simple, and brief. There's virtue in that for quick memoranda, but to say that there's no place in the world for complex, abstract writing or the expression of nuance in careful word choice (as you describe) is a real shame. Too often I've been corrected by people who say "you mean 'I wish I _was_' because the subject is singular". There's some evidence that language is what makes abstract thought even possible. Perhaps we're leaving our minds unable to comprehend abstractions when we reduce that available in our language. More discussion is at https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/21/life-without-language/ https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/21/life-without-langua.... Or maybe I just need to get over it. I overcame my violent aversion to starting sentences with "or" and "and", after all.
    - wruza 10y ago
      >I overcame my violent aversion to starting sentences with "or" and "and", after all. This alone interested me in advanced English. Learning via reading all these comments and blog posts, I rarely realize that I'm learning from non-native speakers.
      - CalRobert 10y ago
        Interestingly non-native speakers will sometimes have a better handle on usages which are declining in English-speaking countries. I understood when to use "whom" much better after studying Wer, Wen, and Wem in German.
    - coldpie 10y ago
      Just want to say that what I feared was going to be an angry grammar-nazi-stand-off was actually a pleasant, friendly, and informative discussion of the possibilities of language usage in different contexts. Cheers for keeping your heads, all.
RileyKyeden 10y ago
Styles change with technology. The headline may be rendered to maximize SEO value, but the body leaves room for flavor. Most writers don't take advantage, but that's on the writers, not technology. Already, we see headlines returning to a more creative state as people learn to bridge machine bait with human interest.

by lutusp 10y ago

CalRobert 10y ago

Can you elaborate? The title, as presented here, is nothing spectacular, but it's not necessarily inadequate to the task. Also, the "all now gone" phrase in your alternate strikes me as somewhat awkward. While reading your version I also wondered why you might go with "There once were" rather than "There were once"? We all have our own pet peeves, though. I weep at the loss of the subjunctive in English (For most usages it's "I wish I WERE there", not "I wish I WAS there", dammit!!!)

lutusp 10y ago
> The title, as presented here, is nothing spectacular, but it's not necessarily inadequate to the task. I just see too many uses of "There used to be", which to me is a crude way to concatenate two stock phrases without reflection, but in a awkward way that grates on my ear. Also I think Strunk & White's concision emphasis still rings true. > I also wondered why you might go with "There once were" rather than "There were once"? Voicing the candidates shows the difference. I imagine speaking anything I write, which reveals phrasings that would be hard to say out loud. > We all have our own pet peeves, though. I weep at the loss of the subjunctive in English (For most usages it's "I wish I WERE there", not "I wish I WAS there", dammit!!!) I have a funny story about that. A depressed child enters the kitchen and says, "I wish I was dead!" The child's mother says, "Oh no! Not that! Don't you mean 'I wish I were dead'?" :) > Also, the "all now gone" phrase in your alternate strikes me as somewhat awkward. Perhaps, but in my view not compared to "They all disappeared," which suggests proactive agency (did they run away?) rather than passive fate.
- CalRobert 10y ago
  'Perhaps, but in my view not compared to "They all disappeared," which suggests proactive agency (did they run away?) rather than passive fate' Ah, I see your point. Sadly I think a generation or two of teachers maniacally chastising their students for ever using the passive form could have something to do with this. Even in this forum, you'll find plenty of people saying that all writing need be direct, simple, and brief. There's virtue in that for quick memoranda, but to say that there's no place in the world for complex, abstract writing or the expression of nuance in careful word choice (as you describe) is a real shame. Too often I've been corrected by people who say "you mean 'I wish I _was_' because the subject is singular". There's some evidence that language is what makes abstract thought even possible. Perhaps we're leaving our minds unable to comprehend abstractions when we reduce that available in our language. More discussion is at https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/21/life-without-language/ https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/21/life-without-langua.... Or maybe I just need to get over it. I overcame my violent aversion to starting sentences with "or" and "and", after all.
  - wruza 10y ago
    >I overcame my violent aversion to starting sentences with "or" and "and", after all. This alone interested me in advanced English. Learning via reading all these comments and blog posts, I rarely realize that I'm learning from non-native speakers.
    - CalRobert 10y ago
      Interestingly non-native speakers will sometimes have a better handle on usages which are declining in English-speaking countries. I understood when to use "whom" much better after studying Wer, Wen, and Wem in German.
  - coldpie 10y ago
    Just want to say that what I feared was going to be an angry grammar-nazi-stand-off was actually a pleasant, friendly, and informative discussion of the possibilities of language usage in different contexts. Cheers for keeping your heads, all.

RileyKyeden 10y ago

Styles change with technology. The headline may be rendered to maximize SEO value, but the body leaves room for flavor. Most writers don't take advantage, but that's on the writers, not technology. Already, we see headlines returning to a more creative state as people learn to bridge machine bait with human interest.