6 ms·

Indeed. In addition to your points, Orwell has to do with both an overreaching left (thought crime) and right (surveillance state). The government even associat

by zamalek 10y ago

Indeed. In addition to your points, Orwell has to do with both an overreaching left (thought crime) and right (surveillance state). The government even associates itself with socialism. That being said, it's not a stretch to imagine that it takes two successive and opposed politicians to set up and orwellian state. Trump would set up the surveillance state (as he threatens to do), and some future authoritative Democrat could outlaw freedom of speech.

icebraining 10y ago
Orwell has to do with both an overreaching left (thought crime) and right (surveillance state). No, the surveillance state is certainly not a right-wing-specific thing, and in fact Orwell was probably inspired by the Stasi and other Soviet secret police agencies. Just to give you an idea: By 1995, some 174,000 inoffizielle Mitarbeiter (IMs) Stasi informants had been identified, almost 2.5% of East Germany's population between the ages of 18 and 60. 10,000 IMs were under 18 years of age. The last line is significant, since the book talks on children denouncing their own parents, who live afraid of them.
- zamalek 10y ago
  Thanks for the correction, I clearly interpreted it incorrectly.
- PhoneAccount 10y ago
  > in fact Orwell was probably inspired by the Stasi You know when 1984 was written?
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Yes; a couple of years after the Stasi was created, though it was called Kommissariat 5 back then, before the GDR was officially established and could have official agencies.
    - PhoneAccount 10y ago
      So, you are claiming that he looked into the future to see what happens with the Stasi? But even if you want to get technical: He started writing in 1946 and the final manuscript was presented in 1948. The "Volkskommissariat" may have been around, but you really can not compare their activity to the Stasi. If you were talking about them, then your quote makes no sense at all.
      - zigzigzag 10y ago
        The Stasi were simply a recreation/extension of Soviet secret police tactics.
        PhoneAccount 10y ago
        That's a bit oversimplified and a different story -- I might agree, however, that there is inspiration from the UdSSR -- but again, different story.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        > So, you are claiming that he looked into the future to see what happens with the Stasi? No, I'm claiming that from his position (particularly after his involvement in the Spanish Civil War), he was informed of the founding and early activities of the Stasi, and wrote the book based on the thought-experiment "what if a whole country was dominated by these principles?" > The "Volkskommissariat" may have been around, but you really can not compare their activity to the Stasi. That's not surprising, considering how "[i]n reality, K-5 was only nominally housed in the People's Police" (Dennis and Laporte, 2003).
        evanb 10y ago
        For more about his experience in the Spanish Civil War and its influence on his writing, I suggest the In Our Time episode on Animal Farm: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07wgkz4 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07wgkz4
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
> Trump would set up the surveillance state I'm puzzled by this comment. The US surveillance state was set up prior to Trump. Is anyone still doubting the complete slurping of everything the TLAs (Three Letter Agencies) can get? It wouldn't matter who the President was right now, this thing will march on. Maybe it's convenient we get to lay some of the blame on DJ Trump. That's all.
- zamalek 10y ago
  More precisely, he aims to extend the powers of the TLAs to a very worrying degree. > [1] “And certain things will be done that we never thought would happen in this country in terms of information and learning about the enemy. And so we’re going to have to do certain things that were frankly unthinkable a year ago.” So it's not blame-laying, he's saying this stuff himself. [1]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/12/trump-and-his-advisors-surveillance-encryption-cybersecurity https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/12/trump-and-his-advisors...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    At least he's honest. Any other potential president would have had their hand forced or led the charge too.
    - zamalek 10y ago
      > At least he's honest. While true, that is a non-sequitur.
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      >At least he's honest. Saying something true by chance doesn't make the man honest when his words are randomly generated.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
        Yeah, it's like that thing about giving an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters and they'll eventually duplicate Shakespeare. Now we get to conduct a similar experiment whereby we see first hand if having an actual clown in the oval office is any different to a real politician. Trump reminds me of William S. Burrows Naked Lunch. Burroughs stated that the chapters are intended to be read in any order, and Trump is about as obscene.
TheGirondin 10y ago
>Trump would set up the surveillance state (as he threatens to do) These kind of comments really underscore how little credibility the anti-Trump crowd has, given the context of the last 8 years.
- BasDirks 10y ago
  Kind of a blanket statement. The anti-Trump crowd is rather large.

by zamalek 10y ago

icebraining 10y ago

Orwell has to do with both an overreaching left (thought crime) and right (surveillance state). No, the surveillance state is certainly not a right-wing-specific thing, and in fact Orwell was probably inspired by the Stasi and other Soviet secret police agencies. Just to give you an idea: By 1995, some 174,000 inoffizielle Mitarbeiter (IMs) Stasi informants had been identified, almost 2.5% of East Germany's population between the ages of 18 and 60. 10,000 IMs were under 18 years of age. The last line is significant, since the book talks on children denouncing their own parents, who live afraid of them.

zamalek 10y ago
Thanks for the correction, I clearly interpreted it incorrectly.
PhoneAccount 10y ago
> in fact Orwell was probably inspired by the Stasi You know when 1984 was written?
- icebraining 10y ago
  Yes; a couple of years after the Stasi was created, though it was called Kommissariat 5 back then, before the GDR was officially established and could have official agencies.
  - PhoneAccount 10y ago
    So, you are claiming that he looked into the future to see what happens with the Stasi? But even if you want to get technical: He started writing in 1946 and the final manuscript was presented in 1948. The "Volkskommissariat" may have been around, but you really can not compare their activity to the Stasi. If you were talking about them, then your quote makes no sense at all.
    - zigzigzag 10y ago
      The Stasi were simply a recreation/extension of Soviet secret police tactics.
      - PhoneAccount 10y ago
        That's a bit oversimplified and a different story -- I might agree, however, that there is inspiration from the UdSSR -- but again, different story.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      > So, you are claiming that he looked into the future to see what happens with the Stasi? No, I'm claiming that from his position (particularly after his involvement in the Spanish Civil War), he was informed of the founding and early activities of the Stasi, and wrote the book based on the thought-experiment "what if a whole country was dominated by these principles?" > The "Volkskommissariat" may have been around, but you really can not compare their activity to the Stasi. That's not surprising, considering how "[i]n reality, K-5 was only nominally housed in the People's Police" (Dennis and Laporte, 2003).
      - evanb 10y ago
        For more about his experience in the Spanish Civil War and its influence on his writing, I suggest the In Our Time episode on Animal Farm: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07wgkz4 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07wgkz4

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago

> Trump would set up the surveillance state I'm puzzled by this comment. The US surveillance state was set up prior to Trump. Is anyone still doubting the complete slurping of everything the TLAs (Three Letter Agencies) can get? It wouldn't matter who the President was right now, this thing will march on. Maybe it's convenient we get to lay some of the blame on DJ Trump. That's all.

zamalek 10y ago
More precisely, he aims to extend the powers of the TLAs to a very worrying degree. > [1] “And certain things will be done that we never thought would happen in this country in terms of information and learning about the enemy. And so we’re going to have to do certain things that were frankly unthinkable a year ago.” So it's not blame-laying, he's saying this stuff himself. [1]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/12/trump-and-his-advisors-surveillance-encryption-cybersecurity https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/12/trump-and-his-advisors...
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  At least he's honest. Any other potential president would have had their hand forced or led the charge too.
  - zamalek 10y ago
    > At least he's honest. While true, that is a non-sequitur.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >At least he's honest. Saying something true by chance doesn't make the man honest when his words are randomly generated.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
      Yeah, it's like that thing about giving an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters and they'll eventually duplicate Shakespeare. Now we get to conduct a similar experiment whereby we see first hand if having an actual clown in the oval office is any different to a real politician. Trump reminds me of William S. Burrows Naked Lunch. Burroughs stated that the chapters are intended to be read in any order, and Trump is about as obscene.

TheGirondin 10y ago

>Trump would set up the surveillance state (as he threatens to do) These kind of comments really underscore how little credibility the anti-Trump crowd has, given the context of the last 8 years.

BasDirks 10y ago
Kind of a blanket statement. The anti-Trump crowd is rather large.