6 ms·

Do people really want him to get impeached and convicted, with Pence being the successor? Seems like a terrible idea...

knieveltech 10y ago
Pence has successfully kept it more or less between lanes for the ~17 years he's been a career politician. The guy might have snakes in his head but part of me would rather risk that than what is, to all appearances, an unhinged budding fascist surrounded by sycophants. YMMV.
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago
  >an unhinged budding fascist surrounded by sycophants. YMMV. I'm not so sure. I almost get the impression that he doesn't really care about a lot of those things except as a means to get that part of the republican base to the polls.
davesque 10y ago
I've heard people say this on a number of occasions. Let me say why I'm not so worried about it. The thing that makes Trump different from almost any other politician I've seen is the control he has over his followers. They don't care if he lies or if any unpleasant fact about him comes to light. They're just transfixed by the guy. I don't believe that Pence or any other current politician has the same power or the same ability to do this. I imagine that, if Pence did have to assume office for some reason, he would just come off to Trump supporters as seeming like a typical politician. He wouldn't be able to drum up the same kind of enthusiasm.
noobermin 10y ago
Going to take off the objective hat and talk as a liberal. The answer I give to this is for the US, the President is both the head of state and the head of government. As is clear from recent articles about Trump's manner in the white house, his team is very much making many of the small policy decisions while Trump gets to strut out as the figurehead. So yes, Trump stepping down wouldn't mean much difference when it comes to his role as a head of government since his team seems to be handling that, but the head of state is still a very important role. Don't forget, he said, "I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything[,]" essentially describing sexual assault, emphasized by me. Not to mention his poor demeanor, his lack of likeability, his unpopularity, the fact he was a reality-TV star. Having such an individual represent the nation is an embarrassment and does not inspire confidence in the nation nor does it abroad. Understand, no international body would respect Trump if he weren't the President. He does not prop us up as a country, he receives respect because we prop him up, and even then, he still depreciates his image by trying to project and strengthen his fragile pride and by involving himself in frivolous engagements on Twitter. So yes, having a different head of state would be beneficial for us, at least in our view. It would not make much of a difference in terms of actual policy, but it would give us with a better representative, which isn't a difficult bar to exceed. EDIT: I almost forgot, despite the politics of it, I do personally feel that a conflict of interest as a President is detrimental to the role as the head of government. We have already seen for example his orders on DAPL, which he still owns some shares of, a direct conflict of interest. And worse, of course, there are his foreign investments, which is worse from a national security standpoint. Sorry, but a head of government should represent us, not their own personal financial interests. You don't even need all my feeling about Trump as a figurehead, although that is important, but his conflicts of interests are a significant issue with him as an elected official.
- jupiter90000 10y ago
  I hear what you're saying. For me, actively working to make someone president (Pence) who has a proven track record in politics doing things for many years I disagree with seems even less desirable to me. Hard to say what the 'lesser of two evils' is here.
  - PretzelFisch 10y ago
    Perception of the country and international policy and diplomacy.
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago
  his team is very much making many of the small policy decisions while Trump gets to strut out as the figurehead. Which is pretty much exactly how you would expect a "I have no idea what I'm doing but I don't want to fuck it up so I'll fill my cabinet with people who know what they're doing and let them do their thing" administration to work. >Not to mention his poor demeanor, his lack of likeability, his unpopularity, the fact he was a reality-TV star. Having such an individual represent the nation is an embarrassment and does not inspire confidence in the nation nor does it abroad. Are these seriously that much more important than how well the job gets done. On some level I don't care if the president is a member of the goddamn KKK if the job gets done well enough.
  - the_cat_kittles 10y ago
    i think some of those things are part of the job, right? is your country getting rich really worth it if it means you cross every moral boundary and inflict continual psychological trauma on half the people in it?
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    >>Which is pretty much exactly how you would expect a "I have no idea what I'm doing but I don't want to fuck it up so I'll fill my cabinet with people who know what they're doing and let them do their thing" administration to work. Sorry, but have to actually seen his cabinet? Ben Carson heading Housing and Urban Development. Betsy Davis heading Department of Education. Rick Perry, a guy with a bachelors degree in animal science, heading the Department of Energy... these people are some of the least qualified people on the planet.
rconti 10y ago
Absolutely. Without a second thought. My issue has nothing whatsoever to do with politics.
cpeterso 10y ago
While Pence may have worse policies than Trump on average, Trump has much worse downside risk because he is unpredictable. Today we have the worst of both: Pence already implementing his domestic policies plus the chance that Trump might nuke someone.
- ElectronCharge 10y ago
  "plus the chance that Trump might nuke someone." You're delusional if you think Trump will perform a first strike. That's complete nonsense. He's a businessman, not a warmonger. His rhetoric is entirely along those lines as well.
azernik 10y ago
From my (quite far-left) perspective, I would be very okay with that outcome. The Presidency's most unchecked power is in foreign policy, where Trump truly scares me. Pence as President would not change the balance of power in Congress, which is where most of the social and economic decisions (where I really have problems with Pence) would be made. Putting on my non-partisan hat, though, I am nervous about the precedent of removing a president from office iff it is seen as a partisan move. The removal of Trump without widespread Republican support (as opposed to a small defecting faction) might be seen as precedent for a higher frequency of partisan impeachments - a danger to be weighed against (in my not-very-objective opinion) the dangers of a Trump presidency.
- jupiter90000 10y ago
  Is there something about Pence's track record that suggests he'd be better for USA on foreign policy?
  - allemagne 10y ago
    I doubt Pence would accidentally put American international agreements, institutions, and treaty organizations into question with weird rambling tweets. I also doubt he'd find any value in antagonizing Mexico over a silly monument to xenophobia. Pence is no foreign policy wiz but I'm not worried about him precipitating huge geopolitical shifts against America's interests.
  - azernik 10y ago
    As far as I know he's more or less the proverbial generic Republican on foreign policy. Which sounds a lot better to me than Trump's uneducated unpredictability.
  - int_19h 10y ago
    Pence is predictable. Diplomats can build plans around predictable. You can make deals, treaties and alliances with predictable. Your opponents know what to expect from you. If nothing else, it at least provides some stability.
rat87 10y ago
Yes Pence is at least a sane conservative theocrat Trump is a lying corrupt racist who is extremely unpredictable and may or may not blow up markets, start wars, abandon our allies, or deport millions of people
- colllectorof 10y ago
  >Trump is a lying corrupt racist Whenever I read something like this, I always wonder whether people posting it legitimately think this kind of rhetoric will advance their argument, or is it all just about social signalling. If I was to criticize someone with the intent of changing others opinions about the person in question, the last thing I would do is interject my criticism with a bunch of derogatory and emotional labels. It would simply make me sound biased, irrational or extremely partisan/dogmatic. And yet, this is exactly what people do, even in the media, who has all kinds of incentives to project a rational and detached image. Extreme social signaling is the only explanation I can come up with.
  - de_Selby 10y ago
    In most cases I would agree, and I get your point about the language not helping the case the poster is trying to make, but is there anything inaccurate in saying he is lying, corrupt or a racist? You'd have a hard time arguing against any of the accusations.
    - mac01021 10y ago
      I haven't seen any very compelling evidence that he's a racist. He may be (most likely is) corrupt but, as has been extensively discussed elsewhere, it is not clear that has done anything strictly illegal, which makes it tricky to say definitively. He definitely spouts outrageous lies all the time, though.
      - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        >He may be (most likely is) corrupt but, as has been extensively discussed elsewhere, it is not clear that has done anything strictly illegal, which makes it tricky to say definitively. Legalized corruption remains corruption. It was when Clinton did it, and it is when Trump does it.

Pence has successfully kept it more or less between lanes for the ~17 years he's been a career politician. The guy might have snakes in his head but part of me would rather risk that than what is, to all appearances, an unhinged budding fascist surrounded by sycophants. YMMV.

dsfyu404ed 10y ago
>an unhinged budding fascist surrounded by sycophants. YMMV. I'm not so sure. I almost get the impression that he doesn't really care about a lot of those things except as a means to get that part of the republican base to the polls.

davesque 10y ago

I've heard people say this on a number of occasions. Let me say why I'm not so worried about it. The thing that makes Trump different from almost any other politician I've seen is the control he has over his followers. They don't care if he lies or if any unpleasant fact about him comes to light. They're just transfixed by the guy. I don't believe that Pence or any other current politician has the same power or the same ability to do this. I imagine that, if Pence did have to assume office for some reason, he would just come off to Trump supporters as seeming like a typical politician. He wouldn't be able to drum up the same kind of enthusiasm.

noobermin 10y ago

Going to take off the objective hat and talk as a liberal. The answer I give to this is for the US, the President is both the head of state and the head of government. As is clear from recent articles about Trump's manner in the white house, his team is very much making many of the small policy decisions while Trump gets to strut out as the figurehead. So yes, Trump stepping down wouldn't mean much difference when it comes to his role as a head of government since his team seems to be handling that, but the head of state is still a very important role. Don't forget, he said, "I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything[,]" essentially describing sexual assault, emphasized by me. Not to mention his poor demeanor, his lack of likeability, his unpopularity, the fact he was a reality-TV star. Having such an individual represent the nation is an embarrassment and does not inspire confidence in the nation nor does it abroad. Understand, no international body would respect Trump if he weren't the President. He does not prop us up as a country, he receives respect because we prop him up, and even then, he still depreciates his image by trying to project and strengthen his fragile pride and by involving himself in frivolous engagements on Twitter. So yes, having a different head of state would be beneficial for us, at least in our view. It would not make much of a difference in terms of actual policy, but it would give us with a better representative, which isn't a difficult bar to exceed. EDIT: I almost forgot, despite the politics of it, I do personally feel that a conflict of interest as a President is detrimental to the role as the head of government. We have already seen for example his orders on DAPL, which he still owns some shares of, a direct conflict of interest. And worse, of course, there are his foreign investments, which is worse from a national security standpoint. Sorry, but a head of government should represent us, not their own personal financial interests. You don't even need all my feeling about Trump as a figurehead, although that is important, but his conflicts of interests are a significant issue with him as an elected official.

jupiter90000 10y ago
I hear what you're saying. For me, actively working to make someone president (Pence) who has a proven track record in politics doing things for many years I disagree with seems even less desirable to me. Hard to say what the 'lesser of two evils' is here.
- PretzelFisch 10y ago
  Perception of the country and international policy and diplomacy.
dsfyu404ed 10y ago
his team is very much making many of the small policy decisions while Trump gets to strut out as the figurehead. Which is pretty much exactly how you would expect a "I have no idea what I'm doing but I don't want to fuck it up so I'll fill my cabinet with people who know what they're doing and let them do their thing" administration to work. >Not to mention his poor demeanor, his lack of likeability, his unpopularity, the fact he was a reality-TV star. Having such an individual represent the nation is an embarrassment and does not inspire confidence in the nation nor does it abroad. Are these seriously that much more important than how well the job gets done. On some level I don't care if the president is a member of the goddamn KKK if the job gets done well enough.
- the_cat_kittles 10y ago
  i think some of those things are part of the job, right? is your country getting rich really worth it if it means you cross every moral boundary and inflict continual psychological trauma on half the people in it?
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  >>Which is pretty much exactly how you would expect a "I have no idea what I'm doing but I don't want to fuck it up so I'll fill my cabinet with people who know what they're doing and let them do their thing" administration to work. Sorry, but have to actually seen his cabinet? Ben Carson heading Housing and Urban Development. Betsy Davis heading Department of Education. Rick Perry, a guy with a bachelors degree in animal science, heading the Department of Energy... these people are some of the least qualified people on the planet.

rconti 10y ago

Absolutely. Without a second thought. My issue has nothing whatsoever to do with politics.

cpeterso 10y ago

While Pence may have worse policies than Trump on average, Trump has much worse downside risk because he is unpredictable. Today we have the worst of both: Pence already implementing his domestic policies plus the chance that Trump might nuke someone.

ElectronCharge 10y ago
"plus the chance that Trump might nuke someone." You're delusional if you think Trump will perform a first strike. That's complete nonsense. He's a businessman, not a warmonger. His rhetoric is entirely along those lines as well.

azernik 10y ago

From my (quite far-left) perspective, I would be very okay with that outcome. The Presidency's most unchecked power is in foreign policy, where Trump truly scares me. Pence as President would not change the balance of power in Congress, which is where most of the social and economic decisions (where I really have problems with Pence) would be made. Putting on my non-partisan hat, though, I am nervous about the precedent of removing a president from office iff it is seen as a partisan move. The removal of Trump without widespread Republican support (as opposed to a small defecting faction) might be seen as precedent for a higher frequency of partisan impeachments - a danger to be weighed against (in my not-very-objective opinion) the dangers of a Trump presidency.

jupiter90000 10y ago
Is there something about Pence's track record that suggests he'd be better for USA on foreign policy?
- allemagne 10y ago
  I doubt Pence would accidentally put American international agreements, institutions, and treaty organizations into question with weird rambling tweets. I also doubt he'd find any value in antagonizing Mexico over a silly monument to xenophobia. Pence is no foreign policy wiz but I'm not worried about him precipitating huge geopolitical shifts against America's interests.
- azernik 10y ago
  As far as I know he's more or less the proverbial generic Republican on foreign policy. Which sounds a lot better to me than Trump's uneducated unpredictability.
- int_19h 10y ago
  Pence is predictable. Diplomats can build plans around predictable. You can make deals, treaties and alliances with predictable. Your opponents know what to expect from you. If nothing else, it at least provides some stability.

rat87 10y ago

Yes Pence is at least a sane conservative theocrat Trump is a lying corrupt racist who is extremely unpredictable and may or may not blow up markets, start wars, abandon our allies, or deport millions of people

colllectorof 10y ago
>Trump is a lying corrupt racist Whenever I read something like this, I always wonder whether people posting it legitimately think this kind of rhetoric will advance their argument, or is it all just about social signalling. If I was to criticize someone with the intent of changing others opinions about the person in question, the last thing I would do is interject my criticism with a bunch of derogatory and emotional labels. It would simply make me sound biased, irrational or extremely partisan/dogmatic. And yet, this is exactly what people do, even in the media, who has all kinds of incentives to project a rational and detached image. Extreme social signaling is the only explanation I can come up with.
- de_Selby 10y ago
  In most cases I would agree, and I get your point about the language not helping the case the poster is trying to make, but is there anything inaccurate in saying he is lying, corrupt or a racist? You'd have a hard time arguing against any of the accusations.
  - mac01021 10y ago
    I haven't seen any very compelling evidence that he's a racist. He may be (most likely is) corrupt but, as has been extensively discussed elsewhere, it is not clear that has done anything strictly illegal, which makes it tricky to say definitively. He definitely spouts outrageous lies all the time, though.
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      >He may be (most likely is) corrupt but, as has been extensively discussed elsewhere, it is not clear that has done anything strictly illegal, which makes it tricky to say definitively. Legalized corruption remains corruption. It was when Clinton did it, and it is when Trump does it.