6 ms·

In the last few months I've built a brand new Node + Express application, and I've built a brand new Rails 5.x one. ES6 has taken the edge off of some of the m

In the last few months I've built a brand new Node + Express application, and I've built a brand new Rails 5.x one. ES6 has taken the edge off of some of the more obnoxious parts of JavaScript, but it still has a long way to go to catch up to Ruby, and Express is a cheap imitation of Rails. It takes me over a day to get an Express application up and running. There's dozens of dependencies to wrangle into place. There's hundreds of lines of code to sketch in even the most basic of applications. So many directories to create, so many new files you have to basically build by hand. There's Gulpfiles to configure. There's a lot of work to integrate Passport. It's a lot of work to get as far as "Hello, world". Meanwhile rails new and some Gemfile dependencies get you almost all the way there within an hour. Then you're making database migrations and laying in CSS and layouts. I love both Node and Ruby for different reasons, but the out-of-the-box experience for Express is total garbage. You can't even parse a cookie without installing a module for that. Node is way easier to create real-time services, like a Socket.io server in JavaScript is way less fuss than Ruby+EventMachine. It absolutely kills it when writing thin JSON APIs, and in terms of performance it's ridiculous. There's nothing preventing Node from having a Rails-like easy start for web applications but the attitude of the community where making decisions for people and having sane defaults is apparently against the rules.

tcfunk 10y ago
> It takes me over a day to get an Express application up and running. I feel so much better after seeing this sentiment here. I've tried to dip my toe into the node.js world repeatedly only to feel like I'm trudging through setup for hours. Of course I may have incorrect memories of how difficult/easy it was to set up my first rails app however long ago.
- astrodust 10y ago
  I should also add it "only" takes me a day because I can crib from a half dozen other Express projects I've created in the past and cherry-pick cut-and-paste parts that I like. As one example my web app Gulpfile has evolved significantly from the first iteration and it would take multiple days to recreate all of that from scratch. The Rails Asset Pipeline might be obnoxiously rigid, but at least it works without having to tear your hair out.
  - wcarron 10y ago
    Forgive me, but what apps do you work on that have such a complex and lengthy gulpfile?
    - astrodust 10y ago
      Nothing exotic but even a routine web application can have 150-250 lines of Gulp directives. Zero of this is provided for you. Each chunk is fairly small, but they add up. You want linting, auto-restart on changes, tests, your various asset chains to compile things correctly, etc.
      - wcarron 10y ago
        Ok, I see your point. I, too, hate writing boilerplate code. But I did three things to resolve this: I built a `config.js` file, which contains the paths to resource files in a more compact format, and is sourced into the gulpfile. I then replaced long path strings with easier to read code. I also threw my standard gulpfile into a git repo, so if I need it, it's there. Lastly, I built a yeoman generator. Now, not only is my gulpfile standardized, but I have the rest of my skeleton application built in a matter of minutes. All my favorite libraries/npm modules, custom scss files, basic routing to the standard pages of a simple site, are all built out for me to my preferences while I make a cup of coffee. You can even provide yourself command line flags to determine whether or not to include tests, which preprocessors for html or css you prefer, etc. Really a worthwhile investment. Write once, utilize many times.
        astrodust 10y ago
        Tools like Yeoman can help here, but they're also relatively obscure and there's a lot of yak shaving involved in getting them working correctly. In a sense complaining about this the Node world is like asking fish how they can stand being wet all the time. It's just part of the terrain. I'm not saying what Node is doing is fundamentally wrong, but that this almost absurd aversion to making decisions for users is sometimes a bad thing. For example, I'd love to be able to declare dependencies for an NPM module that are open-eneded, like "any one of A, B, or C will do", but like it is with Ruby, Python, etc. you must declare all or none. I'm not trying to restrict choice, just cover the base condition of when you don't care of providing a sane default. To a degree Rails has this: The first thing I do in a new project is jettison all the garbage I don't want (see you later turbolinks) and drop in all the things I do want. It's actually just a few lines to manipulate, so I can hardly complain. In the Node world there's a lot of hand-holding required to get even the most basic application up and running. I can see this getting cut down dramatically if you had things like "npm install express +extras" where there was some way of saying "plus whatever other stuff you think is a good idea", or even an "express-fully-loaded" version of the package that comes with a bunch of stuff out of the box. I really like Gulp and when configured it gives you an amazing amount of control over your build process. Although the Rails Asset Pipeline system works as a pretty good default out-of-the-box they really should steal some ideas from Gulp on configurability for those occasions where you want to change the default behaviour. Vinyl.fs (https://github.com/gulpjs/vinyl-fs https://github.com/gulpjs/vinyl-fs) is an amazing thing that the Ruby world desperately needs.
throwanem 10y ago
Rails is omakase. Node is a grocery and a kitchen supply store. Approaching either as if it's the other is a sure recipe for regret.
- astrodust 10y ago
  Node is like walking into a Home Depot when you want a house. Technically you can build one out of the bits they can provide, but it's a ton of work. The thing is Node could offer the Rails out-of-the-box experience through a package that provided sane defaults. There's nothing preventing people from doing this but cultural resistance.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    If you want to build a house, go to Home Depot. If you want to buy one and move in, go to a real estate agent. Standing in the middle of Home Depot complaining about how no one there seems to want to talk about about plats or points doesn't seem like a very worthwhile use of time. There are a large number of projects offering a Rails-style OOTB experience in Node. None of them is blessed as the Node framework. This is because there is no one to do the blessing. Node's developer culture being one you find unsatisfactory is not an example of "resistance". It is an example of difference. And if you do not find the Node style to provide you comfort, there is absolutely no requirement anywhere that you partake of it.
    - astrodust 10y ago
      > There are a great number of projects offering a Rails-style OOTB experience in Node. Which would these be? Even the best tend to fall far short of the full Rails experience. > And if you do not find the Node style to provide you comfort, there is absolutely no requirement anywhere that you partake of it. Translation: "If you don't like it, fuck off." That's not how the Node community has treated me as long as I've been a part of it. The people I've interacted with are often very welcoming, encouraging and responsible. I'm talking about cultural conventions, not individual attitudes. The difference is that the Node world is used to things taking time to put together. The Rails world finds this to be unbelievably fussy. Python people from the Django realm are in the middle. To promote a new way of doing things, like Rails did, is an effort way beyond my singular capability. It will require a lot of like-minded individuals to go "You know, maybe we could make something that wraps around Express and gives you a Rails-like experience for those that want it." and then work towards making that happen.

tcfunk 10y ago

> It takes me over a day to get an Express application up and running. I feel so much better after seeing this sentiment here. I've tried to dip my toe into the node.js world repeatedly only to feel like I'm trudging through setup for hours. Of course I may have incorrect memories of how difficult/easy it was to set up my first rails app however long ago.

astrodust 10y ago
I should also add it "only" takes me a day because I can crib from a half dozen other Express projects I've created in the past and cherry-pick cut-and-paste parts that I like. As one example my web app Gulpfile has evolved significantly from the first iteration and it would take multiple days to recreate all of that from scratch. The Rails Asset Pipeline might be obnoxiously rigid, but at least it works without having to tear your hair out.
- wcarron 10y ago
  Forgive me, but what apps do you work on that have such a complex and lengthy gulpfile?
  - astrodust 10y ago
    Nothing exotic but even a routine web application can have 150-250 lines of Gulp directives. Zero of this is provided for you. Each chunk is fairly small, but they add up. You want linting, auto-restart on changes, tests, your various asset chains to compile things correctly, etc.
    - wcarron 10y ago
      Ok, I see your point. I, too, hate writing boilerplate code. But I did three things to resolve this: I built a `config.js` file, which contains the paths to resource files in a more compact format, and is sourced into the gulpfile. I then replaced long path strings with easier to read code. I also threw my standard gulpfile into a git repo, so if I need it, it's there. Lastly, I built a yeoman generator. Now, not only is my gulpfile standardized, but I have the rest of my skeleton application built in a matter of minutes. All my favorite libraries/npm modules, custom scss files, basic routing to the standard pages of a simple site, are all built out for me to my preferences while I make a cup of coffee. You can even provide yourself command line flags to determine whether or not to include tests, which preprocessors for html or css you prefer, etc. Really a worthwhile investment. Write once, utilize many times.
      - astrodust 10y ago
        Tools like Yeoman can help here, but they're also relatively obscure and there's a lot of yak shaving involved in getting them working correctly. In a sense complaining about this the Node world is like asking fish how they can stand being wet all the time. It's just part of the terrain. I'm not saying what Node is doing is fundamentally wrong, but that this almost absurd aversion to making decisions for users is sometimes a bad thing. For example, I'd love to be able to declare dependencies for an NPM module that are open-eneded, like "any one of A, B, or C will do", but like it is with Ruby, Python, etc. you must declare all or none. I'm not trying to restrict choice, just cover the base condition of when you don't care of providing a sane default. To a degree Rails has this: The first thing I do in a new project is jettison all the garbage I don't want (see you later turbolinks) and drop in all the things I do want. It's actually just a few lines to manipulate, so I can hardly complain. In the Node world there's a lot of hand-holding required to get even the most basic application up and running. I can see this getting cut down dramatically if you had things like "npm install express +extras" where there was some way of saying "plus whatever other stuff you think is a good idea", or even an "express-fully-loaded" version of the package that comes with a bunch of stuff out of the box. I really like Gulp and when configured it gives you an amazing amount of control over your build process. Although the Rails Asset Pipeline system works as a pretty good default out-of-the-box they really should steal some ideas from Gulp on configurability for those occasions where you want to change the default behaviour. Vinyl.fs (https://github.com/gulpjs/vinyl-fs https://github.com/gulpjs/vinyl-fs) is an amazing thing that the Ruby world desperately needs.

throwanem 10y ago

Rails is omakase. Node is a grocery and a kitchen supply store. Approaching either as if it's the other is a sure recipe for regret.

astrodust 10y ago
Node is like walking into a Home Depot when you want a house. Technically you can build one out of the bits they can provide, but it's a ton of work. The thing is Node could offer the Rails out-of-the-box experience through a package that provided sane defaults. There's nothing preventing people from doing this but cultural resistance.
- throwanem 10y ago
  If you want to build a house, go to Home Depot. If you want to buy one and move in, go to a real estate agent. Standing in the middle of Home Depot complaining about how no one there seems to want to talk about about plats or points doesn't seem like a very worthwhile use of time. There are a large number of projects offering a Rails-style OOTB experience in Node. None of them is blessed as the Node framework. This is because there is no one to do the blessing. Node's developer culture being one you find unsatisfactory is not an example of "resistance". It is an example of difference. And if you do not find the Node style to provide you comfort, there is absolutely no requirement anywhere that you partake of it.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    > There are a great number of projects offering a Rails-style OOTB experience in Node. Which would these be? Even the best tend to fall far short of the full Rails experience. > And if you do not find the Node style to provide you comfort, there is absolutely no requirement anywhere that you partake of it. Translation: "If you don't like it, fuck off." That's not how the Node community has treated me as long as I've been a part of it. The people I've interacted with are often very welcoming, encouraging and responsible. I'm talking about cultural conventions, not individual attitudes. The difference is that the Node world is used to things taking time to put together. The Rails world finds this to be unbelievably fussy. Python people from the Django realm are in the middle. To promote a new way of doing things, like Rails did, is an effort way beyond my singular capability. It will require a lot of like-minded individuals to go "You know, maybe we could make something that wraps around Express and gives you a Rails-like experience for those that want it." and then work towards making that happen.