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It took me too long to realise that a lot of the popular kids where also smart. They just had social skills as well. It's much easier to tell yourself that ot

by jmkni 10y ago

It took me too long to realise that a lot of the popular kids where also smart. They just had social skills as well. It's much easier to tell yourself that other people don't like you because you are smarter than them than it is to work on yourself.

flying_kangaroo 10y ago
I thought 21 Jump Street hit the nail on the head w.r.t. (modern?) high schools, a lot of the most popular kids in that movie were also the smart, "nerdy" types. Could be a regional thing though, who knows.
- TillE 10y ago
  Sure sure. The smartest kid at my high school was also one of the funniest people I've known; he didn't hang out with the "popular" cliques or anything, but everyone knew and liked him. You can be a nerd and not horribly awkward.
diminoten 10y ago
It's sad that people tend to think of life as some kind of DnD character creation, where people have the same points but allocated in different ways. Instead, some people just have more points than you, and just because they have more points in charisma, doesn't mean they also don't have more points than you in intellect. I've heard, even on this site, people deride management and C-suite types as "dumb" or "the popular kids", and in the same breath worship "that guy in the room"[0] but the stark reality is quite different from this fantasy. [0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/dont-go-dark/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/dont-go-dark/
- formerly_ta 10y ago
  I'd go even further than that. They're not independent variables, but instead are highly correlated. High achievement in one area means you're more than likely to be above average in another.
jesuslop 10y ago
Poor Milhouse wasn't either :-) https://frinkiac.com/caption/S13E18/1058724 https://frinkiac.com/caption/S13E18/1058724
devoply 10y ago
IMO social skills aren't really skills that are learned, they are personality traits. Intelligence is also a personality trait. If you have personality traits that cause social problems then you will have to work on controlling those traits, that itself is a skill. Some people are born will personality traits that make them more likable. People also tend to like people who are like themselves.
arnarbi 10y ago
This. The article (which admittedly stopped reading about 40% in) falls in the trap of condescension because it assumes anyone who isn't a nerd is also not smart. > (FTA) Why don't smart kids make themselves popular? If they're so smart, why don't they figure out how popularity works and beat the system, just as they do for standardized tests? They do. The real problem is that intelligence is hard to see or appreciate when looking upwards. That's why it's not valued, and that's why the author doesn't recognize the people that are intelligent on other planes than he is.
- bootload 10y ago
  "This. The article (which admittedly stopped reading about 40% in) falls in the trap of condescension because it assumes anyone who isn't a nerd is also not smart." I'm not sure that's the intended interpretation. What I do know is there seems to be a dampening effect on people in group situations where you shut up, fit in and assume group norms. Fit in, don't stand out, don't act smart as you are. Take a look at this follow-up article as well. [0] Here's one idea that isn't shown that you might not immediately recognise. Look at this shot. [1] There is a big difference b/w the sneering pg and the pg that dealt with VC's other founders, customers in his viaweb days. Not the same pg you see when ycombinator started. Why? "If you want to learn what people want, read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. When a friend recommended this book, I couldn't believe he was serious. But he insisted it was good, so I read it, and he was right. It deals with the most difficult problem in human experience: how to see things from other people's point of view, instead of thinking only of yourself." Hidden away in "Why Smart People Have Bad Ideas" is the above gem and the answer to your "trap of condescension". I don't think the idea is, not Nerd, not smart. I think it's more, not Nerd, don't care what peers think and do what really matters, instead of what appears to matter. This is a favourite essay of mine. Similar dynamics occurred in my school around the same time, though for myself, a Mathlete, I did't have the same problem with tough guys. A criticism I would make of the essay is what about the female Nerds? How did they go? Of the group of people I went to HS with, of those who are female, I count 5 Phd/MDs between them. [0] Gateway HS ~ http://www.paulgraham.com/gateway.html http://www.paulgraham.com/gateway.html [1] http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/paulgraham_2202_6007061 http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/paulgraham_2202_6007061
CM30 10y ago
Yeah. As much as the typical 'cliche' seems to be a divide between the popular moron jock and the unpopular nerd, the truth is simply that's there's no correlation between popularity and intelligence one way or the other. Some people may be unpopular but smart or popular but dumb, but there's just as many unpopular idiots and popular geniuses.
- soylentcola 10y ago
  Yep. Plenty of folks much more popular than me in school were also fairly smart. As has been mentioned, a lot of it had more to do with social skills but also with "luck of the draw" type things like being more attractive, being more athletic (which often went along with being more attractive), and having parents with more money to buy them fashionable clothes, and better toys (actual toys at a younger age, stuff like cars when older). Who knows? Maybe a lot of their confidence and social skills were a result of those physical and material advantages. I can imagine that I might have been a more confident and outgoing teen/adult if I'd spent my life as a good-looking kid who wore the latest kid-fashion, was good at sports, and had things other kids wanted to play with. Instead I was scrawny with thick glasses, hand-me-down clothes, a lack of strength and coordination, and very few cool "things". So it didn't matter how smart I was when kids brushed me off as a "nerd" and talked shit instead of wanting to hang out. Either way I was gonna end up socially uncomfortable. But that's just me and not the same for anyone else per se. And it leads to the fact that it's made me an adult who understands how big an impact the "hand you're dealt" has on the outcome of your life. I think it's helped me to develop a good sense of empathy and I've always tried to put myself in other people's shoes when I have a disagreement or conflict. So much of who we are is shaped by things out of our control and there's a certain strength and clarity that comes from recognizing this and accepting that you can't change some things but you can work toward others.

by jmkni 10y ago

flying_kangaroo 10y ago

I thought 21 Jump Street hit the nail on the head w.r.t. (modern?) high schools, a lot of the most popular kids in that movie were also the smart, "nerdy" types. Could be a regional thing though, who knows.

TillE 10y ago
Sure sure. The smartest kid at my high school was also one of the funniest people I've known; he didn't hang out with the "popular" cliques or anything, but everyone knew and liked him. You can be a nerd and not horribly awkward.

diminoten 10y ago

It's sad that people tend to think of life as some kind of DnD character creation, where people have the same points but allocated in different ways. Instead, some people just have more points than you, and just because they have more points in charisma, doesn't mean they also don't have more points than you in intellect. I've heard, even on this site, people deride management and C-suite types as "dumb" or "the popular kids", and in the same breath worship "that guy in the room"[0] but the stark reality is quite different from this fantasy. [0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/dont-go-dark/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/dont-go-dark/

formerly_ta 10y ago
I'd go even further than that. They're not independent variables, but instead are highly correlated. High achievement in one area means you're more than likely to be above average in another.

jesuslop 10y ago

Poor Milhouse wasn't either :-) https://frinkiac.com/caption/S13E18/1058724 https://frinkiac.com/caption/S13E18/1058724

devoply 10y ago

IMO social skills aren't really skills that are learned, they are personality traits. Intelligence is also a personality trait. If you have personality traits that cause social problems then you will have to work on controlling those traits, that itself is a skill. Some people are born will personality traits that make them more likable. People also tend to like people who are like themselves.

arnarbi 10y ago

This. The article (which admittedly stopped reading about 40% in) falls in the trap of condescension because it assumes anyone who isn't a nerd is also not smart. > (FTA) Why don't smart kids make themselves popular? If they're so smart, why don't they figure out how popularity works and beat the system, just as they do for standardized tests? They do. The real problem is that intelligence is hard to see or appreciate when looking upwards. That's why it's not valued, and that's why the author doesn't recognize the people that are intelligent on other planes than he is.

bootload 10y ago
"This. The article (which admittedly stopped reading about 40% in) falls in the trap of condescension because it assumes anyone who isn't a nerd is also not smart." I'm not sure that's the intended interpretation. What I do know is there seems to be a dampening effect on people in group situations where you shut up, fit in and assume group norms. Fit in, don't stand out, don't act smart as you are. Take a look at this follow-up article as well. [0] Here's one idea that isn't shown that you might not immediately recognise. Look at this shot. [1] There is a big difference b/w the sneering pg and the pg that dealt with VC's other founders, customers in his viaweb days. Not the same pg you see when ycombinator started. Why? "If you want to learn what people want, read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. When a friend recommended this book, I couldn't believe he was serious. But he insisted it was good, so I read it, and he was right. It deals with the most difficult problem in human experience: how to see things from other people's point of view, instead of thinking only of yourself." Hidden away in "Why Smart People Have Bad Ideas" is the above gem and the answer to your "trap of condescension". I don't think the idea is, not Nerd, not smart. I think it's more, not Nerd, don't care what peers think and do what really matters, instead of what appears to matter. This is a favourite essay of mine. Similar dynamics occurred in my school around the same time, though for myself, a Mathlete, I did't have the same problem with tough guys. A criticism I would make of the essay is what about the female Nerds? How did they go? Of the group of people I went to HS with, of those who are female, I count 5 Phd/MDs between them. [0] Gateway HS ~ http://www.paulgraham.com/gateway.html http://www.paulgraham.com/gateway.html [1] http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/paulgraham_2202_6007061 http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/paulgraham_2202_6007061

CM30 10y ago

Yeah. As much as the typical 'cliche' seems to be a divide between the popular moron jock and the unpopular nerd, the truth is simply that's there's no correlation between popularity and intelligence one way or the other. Some people may be unpopular but smart or popular but dumb, but there's just as many unpopular idiots and popular geniuses.

soylentcola 10y ago
Yep. Plenty of folks much more popular than me in school were also fairly smart. As has been mentioned, a lot of it had more to do with social skills but also with "luck of the draw" type things like being more attractive, being more athletic (which often went along with being more attractive), and having parents with more money to buy them fashionable clothes, and better toys (actual toys at a younger age, stuff like cars when older). Who knows? Maybe a lot of their confidence and social skills were a result of those physical and material advantages. I can imagine that I might have been a more confident and outgoing teen/adult if I'd spent my life as a good-looking kid who wore the latest kid-fashion, was good at sports, and had things other kids wanted to play with. Instead I was scrawny with thick glasses, hand-me-down clothes, a lack of strength and coordination, and very few cool "things". So it didn't matter how smart I was when kids brushed me off as a "nerd" and talked shit instead of wanting to hang out. Either way I was gonna end up socially uncomfortable. But that's just me and not the same for anyone else per se. And it leads to the fact that it's made me an adult who understands how big an impact the "hand you're dealt" has on the outcome of your life. I think it's helped me to develop a good sense of empathy and I've always tried to put myself in other people's shoes when I have a disagreement or conflict. So much of who we are is shaped by things out of our control and there's a certain strength and clarity that comes from recognizing this and accepting that you can't change some things but you can work toward others.