8 ms·

Japan is pretty famous for having almost no crime. I doubt they're debating crime-fightin The reason for this is not generally applicable outside extremely hom

by gaius 10y ago

Japan is pretty famous for having almost no crime. I doubt they're debating crime-fightin The reason for this is not generally applicable outside extremely homogeneous populations.

throwaway13231 10y ago
Singapore is one of the most diverse countries in Asia and has similar crime rates to Japan.
- ng12 10y ago
  Singapore is over 75% ethnically Chinese. That's still remarkably homogeneous by US standards.
- gaius 10y ago
  It depends what you mean by "diverse". You could say Switzerland is diverse, they speak 3 languages there, but there is an essential Swissness that everyone generally agrees on. I believe the same is true of Japan. Maybe the word I actually wanted was somewhere between homogeneous and harmonious.
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    Over 15% of Singapore's population are non-citizens ("foreign talent"), so whatever they're doing it's not the same as Switzerland
mafribe 10y ago
Singapore has similarly low crime figures and is not remotely as homogeneous as Japan.
clock_tower 10y ago
What's the reason, then? Looking at Appalachia and southern Italy, I don't see any reason to believe that ethnic/racial/cultural homogeneity is a magic bullet.
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago
  Pretty much all the crime in rural areas is a side effect of drugs. There isn't enough anonymity in those areas to actually be a career criminal (other than dealing drugs).
  - clock_tower 10y ago
    These societies' problems are certainly not recent, and they're not just due to drugs. For Appalachia, read _Albion's Seed_ or at least Slate Star Codex's review ("the sensibility is positively Orcish"); for Sicily, read Peter Turchin's _War and Peace and War_ (watch for the section on "asabiyya black holes"), and probably _The Moral Basis of a Backwards Society_. Both of these societies have been absolutely awful for centuries.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  It's definitely not, proven by the examples you cited. Where you get ultra-low crime is when you combine that homogeneity with good public education. Take a look at the education systems and levels in places like Japan or Norway, and then compare to Appalachia or Sicily or various middle eastern nations. Also look at the levels of religiosity.
  - clock_tower 10y ago
    But if good public education and low religiosity were the magic bullets, the Soviet Union would never have fallen; if homogeneity was necessary, Singapore wouldn't work and the Ottoman Empire would always have been dysfunctional; if high religiosity was bad in itself, Bavaria would be a hellhole. Some religions get in the way, others don't -- and some actively help to enrich their societies. (Zoroastrianism should come to mind. Rice was the staple crop of Persia before it was the staple of China, thanks to pious Zoroastrian agricultural research; and building an aqueduct or draining a swamp was a fast path to paradise. Down to the present, the Zoroastrians do pretty well for themselves -- the Parsis of India are the main population of Zoroastrians today -- and some of their habits of mind seem to still be present in Iran today.) I've come to believe that the potential to rise in social position is what matters most, except possibly in Zoroastrian societies. Appalachia, Sicily (including lower-class parts of Boston), and the Middle East all agree that where you were born is where you'll stay, and that ambition is ridiculous or contemptible; while the healthiest societies are the ones where talent can bubble to the top even if you're not the judge's son. My favorite example of the vitality that social mobility brings is the Ibo of Nigeria -- "the Jews of Africa", the most successful and energetic of West African peoples. Also look at the dynamic nature of the early Islamic world, compared compared to the stagnant nature of the modern one. And what's true of the Islamic world is equally true of the Iberian one; Brazil and West Virginia have the same basic problem. And back in the Middle Ages, too, it was the most fluid societies -- Lombardy, England, the Low Countries, and the Iberian states -- that were the most successful ones.
astrange 10y ago
You could say Japan committed quite a lot of crime 75 years ago, but the population hasn't really changed since then. Probably, these days, everyone has something better to do.
zumu 10y ago
People often claim this, but I have never seen evidence for causation--just theories, whereas the actual evidence is only correlation.

by gaius 10y ago

Japan is pretty famous for having almost no crime. I doubt they're debating crime-fightin The reason for this is not generally applicable outside extremely homogeneous populations.

throwaway13231 10y ago

Singapore is one of the most diverse countries in Asia and has similar crime rates to Japan.

ng12 10y ago
Singapore is over 75% ethnically Chinese. That's still remarkably homogeneous by US standards.
gaius 10y ago
It depends what you mean by "diverse". You could say Switzerland is diverse, they speak 3 languages there, but there is an essential Swissness that everyone generally agrees on. I believe the same is true of Japan. Maybe the word I actually wanted was somewhere between homogeneous and harmonious.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  Over 15% of Singapore's population are non-citizens ("foreign talent"), so whatever they're doing it's not the same as Switzerland

mafribe 10y ago

Singapore has similarly low crime figures and is not remotely as homogeneous as Japan.

clock_tower 10y ago

What's the reason, then? Looking at Appalachia and southern Italy, I don't see any reason to believe that ethnic/racial/cultural homogeneity is a magic bullet.

dsfyu404ed 10y ago
Pretty much all the crime in rural areas is a side effect of drugs. There isn't enough anonymity in those areas to actually be a career criminal (other than dealing drugs).
- clock_tower 10y ago
  These societies' problems are certainly not recent, and they're not just due to drugs. For Appalachia, read _Albion's Seed_ or at least Slate Star Codex's review ("the sensibility is positively Orcish"); for Sicily, read Peter Turchin's _War and Peace and War_ (watch for the section on "asabiyya black holes"), and probably _The Moral Basis of a Backwards Society_. Both of these societies have been absolutely awful for centuries.
Arizhel 10y ago
It's definitely not, proven by the examples you cited. Where you get ultra-low crime is when you combine that homogeneity with good public education. Take a look at the education systems and levels in places like Japan or Norway, and then compare to Appalachia or Sicily or various middle eastern nations. Also look at the levels of religiosity.
- clock_tower 10y ago
  But if good public education and low religiosity were the magic bullets, the Soviet Union would never have fallen; if homogeneity was necessary, Singapore wouldn't work and the Ottoman Empire would always have been dysfunctional; if high religiosity was bad in itself, Bavaria would be a hellhole. Some religions get in the way, others don't -- and some actively help to enrich their societies. (Zoroastrianism should come to mind. Rice was the staple crop of Persia before it was the staple of China, thanks to pious Zoroastrian agricultural research; and building an aqueduct or draining a swamp was a fast path to paradise. Down to the present, the Zoroastrians do pretty well for themselves -- the Parsis of India are the main population of Zoroastrians today -- and some of their habits of mind seem to still be present in Iran today.) I've come to believe that the potential to rise in social position is what matters most, except possibly in Zoroastrian societies. Appalachia, Sicily (including lower-class parts of Boston), and the Middle East all agree that where you were born is where you'll stay, and that ambition is ridiculous or contemptible; while the healthiest societies are the ones where talent can bubble to the top even if you're not the judge's son. My favorite example of the vitality that social mobility brings is the Ibo of Nigeria -- "the Jews of Africa", the most successful and energetic of West African peoples. Also look at the dynamic nature of the early Islamic world, compared compared to the stagnant nature of the modern one. And what's true of the Islamic world is equally true of the Iberian one; Brazil and West Virginia have the same basic problem. And back in the Middle Ages, too, it was the most fluid societies -- Lombardy, England, the Low Countries, and the Iberian states -- that were the most successful ones.

astrange 10y ago

You could say Japan committed quite a lot of crime 75 years ago, but the population hasn't really changed since then. Probably, these days, everyone has something better to do.

zumu 10y ago

People often claim this, but I have never seen evidence for causation--just theories, whereas the actual evidence is only correlation.