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If they just want to steal your car, coming to a stop and abandoning the vehicle is probably the safest thing to do anyway. But if they actually intend to harm

If they just want to steal your car, coming to a stop and abandoning the vehicle is probably the safest thing to do anyway. But if they actually intend to harm you, you've got bigger problems, and you should probably hire a professional defensive driver instead of expecting consumer AI to support your edge case.

csydas 10y ago
I'm not sure I'm explaiing the scenario well - this isn't a planned attack, it's an opportunity attack where you're the victim based simply on the fact that you happened to be there, much like a mugging. Assume the following for a moment: It is known that, when presented with pedestrians in an unexpected area, an automated car will plot away around them or will yield until they are no longer in the way. Supposed that with the condition, you were having your car drive you from downtown to your small suburb that requires going down any generally empty road. (i.e., no one is around because it's late) In the distance, 4 people form a loose barrier that the car can't safely pass through so it triggers the logic to yield to pedestrians. The people are muggers, and they quickly break the windows and proceed to mug. Yes, it's a very specific scenario, but if such a case of logic exists, how long until such a scenario becomes common place? This isn't asking AI to evaluate and protect people from targeted attacks or inventing paranoid delusions of importance, it's about figuring out how to respond to a fairly simple abuse of an often called for bit of logic in the AI.
- aninhumer 10y ago
  What do you think a human would do differently in this scenario? If a normal person is driving home late and sees even just one person standing in the road, they'll probably slow down for them before even thinking about it, just like the car. I think if this were such an effective way to mug people, it would already be a major problem. And again, you're talking about a car that's surrounded by cameras by design. It would be easy to include a button that immediately starts streaming all camera info to cloud storage (or indeed, just do so by default if mugging were such a huge problem).
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    If we define "normal person" to mean a person who lives in a safe country where carjackings are not commonplace, maybe.
    - aninhumer 10y ago
      Yes, that is the market I expect self-driving cars to target.
      - emodendroket 10y ago
        You don't see any demand at all in, say, South Africa, or Brazil? I think that's delusional.
        aninhumer 10y ago
        Did I say that? I said I don't think they will be the (initial) target market, and thus the cars inability to deal with carjackers will be a non-issue.
emodendroket 10y ago
> But if they actually intend to harm you, you've got bigger problems, and you should probably hire a professional defensive driver instead of expecting consumer AI to support your edge case. I mean this is just reality in a lot of places; I don't see how you can just handwave it away. Cars are designed to operate in all kinds of extremes that probably don't apply to your personal situation.
- aninhumer 10y ago
  >Cars are designed to operate in all kinds of extremes Yes, and self-driving cars will not be suitable for those extremes. I don't see how that's a major problem?
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    I don't see a lot of demand for a car that's only appropriate for pleasant Sunday drives.
    - aninhumer 10y ago
      There's a huge range of common usage between "pleasant Sunday drives" and "extreme defensive driving against armed goons". I don't think the latter is necessary for self-driving cars to be successful.
      - emodendroket 10y ago
        But it's just an example, is the point. We don't have big carjacking rings, but we have plenty of extreme weather, old roads (even dirt roads depending on where you are), and other extreme circumstances that maybe don't matter to somebody who never wants to leave a forty-mile radius of Mountain View. Even in an idyll you could imagine some novel circumstance created by, say, downed power lines.

csydas 10y ago

I'm not sure I'm explaiing the scenario well - this isn't a planned attack, it's an opportunity attack where you're the victim based simply on the fact that you happened to be there, much like a mugging. Assume the following for a moment: It is known that, when presented with pedestrians in an unexpected area, an automated car will plot away around them or will yield until they are no longer in the way. Supposed that with the condition, you were having your car drive you from downtown to your small suburb that requires going down any generally empty road. (i.e., no one is around because it's late) In the distance, 4 people form a loose barrier that the car can't safely pass through so it triggers the logic to yield to pedestrians. The people are muggers, and they quickly break the windows and proceed to mug. Yes, it's a very specific scenario, but if such a case of logic exists, how long until such a scenario becomes common place? This isn't asking AI to evaluate and protect people from targeted attacks or inventing paranoid delusions of importance, it's about figuring out how to respond to a fairly simple abuse of an often called for bit of logic in the AI.

aninhumer 10y ago
What do you think a human would do differently in this scenario? If a normal person is driving home late and sees even just one person standing in the road, they'll probably slow down for them before even thinking about it, just like the car. I think if this were such an effective way to mug people, it would already be a major problem. And again, you're talking about a car that's surrounded by cameras by design. It would be easy to include a button that immediately starts streaming all camera info to cloud storage (or indeed, just do so by default if mugging were such a huge problem).
- emodendroket 10y ago
  If we define "normal person" to mean a person who lives in a safe country where carjackings are not commonplace, maybe.
  - aninhumer 10y ago
    Yes, that is the market I expect self-driving cars to target.
    - emodendroket 10y ago
      You don't see any demand at all in, say, South Africa, or Brazil? I think that's delusional.
      - aninhumer 10y ago
        Did I say that? I said I don't think they will be the (initial) target market, and thus the cars inability to deal with carjackers will be a non-issue.

emodendroket 10y ago

> But if they actually intend to harm you, you've got bigger problems, and you should probably hire a professional defensive driver instead of expecting consumer AI to support your edge case. I mean this is just reality in a lot of places; I don't see how you can just handwave it away. Cars are designed to operate in all kinds of extremes that probably don't apply to your personal situation.

aninhumer 10y ago
>Cars are designed to operate in all kinds of extremes Yes, and self-driving cars will not be suitable for those extremes. I don't see how that's a major problem?
- emodendroket 10y ago
  I don't see a lot of demand for a car that's only appropriate for pleasant Sunday drives.
  - aninhumer 10y ago
    There's a huge range of common usage between "pleasant Sunday drives" and "extreme defensive driving against armed goons". I don't think the latter is necessary for self-driving cars to be successful.
    - emodendroket 10y ago
      But it's just an example, is the point. We don't have big carjacking rings, but we have plenty of extreme weather, old roads (even dirt roads depending on where you are), and other extreme circumstances that maybe don't matter to somebody who never wants to leave a forty-mile radius of Mountain View. Even in an idyll you could imagine some novel circumstance created by, say, downed power lines.