4 ms·

DX12 is the base for XBox One API so it's going to be a thing, I suppose, until MS pulls out of console business (but I don't see why they would, the original X

DX12 is the base for XBox One API so it's going to be a thing, I suppose, until MS pulls out of console business (but I don't see why they would, the original XBox was a bigger disaster yet they stayed). After all, both Sony and Nintendo use their proprietary APIs too. The reason you need a proprietary API on a console is that you cannot make a game running on a $200-300 piece of consumer electronics compete with a game running on a $1000+ PC if they both use the same API. There is a lot of work a DX/OpenGL driver does behind the scenes to make the same code run on GPUs of different architectures while sharing the same device with other processes. When you target only one GPU in exclusive mode you can do the same things so much faster.

shmerl 10y ago
Nintendo started to use Vulkan, so things are moving in the right direction, though pretty slowly. > The reason you need a proprietary API on a console is that you cannot make a game running on a $200-300 piece of consumer electronics compete with a game running on a $1000+ PC if they both use the same API. Their primary reason is to tax developers who want to release games cross platform. In practice, no one prevents console makers from making more expensive high end consoles. Those who want demanding games, would buy more expensive hardware. Console is just a type of human interface, nothing inherently in it requires it to be cheap. Same as in regular PCs. The only reason current incumbent consoles are like that is lack of proper competition in their space. Compare it to mobile hardware where competition is fierce.
- slimsag 10y ago
  On which platform? I would LOVE some sources on this! (seriously! I would really appreciate it)
  - shmerl 10y ago
    See https://www.khronos.org/conformance/adopters/conformant-products#vulkan https://www.khronos.org/conformance/adopters/conformant-prod... (Search for Nintendo there). They support Vulkan on the Switch, which shows that they now see benefits in using cross platform APIs.
    - slimsag 10y ago
      <3 thank you! This makes me so much happier about my Switch preorder for gamedev purposes :)
      - shmerl 10y ago
        For me personally, Nintendo is way too locked up and DRMed. I'm more interested in something like this: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/smachteam/smach-z-the-handheld-gaming-pc https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/smachteam/smach-z-the-h... But it's good that they are pushing Vulkan forward.
- pandaman 10y ago
  I don't develop for Nintendo so I am curious, is it like PS3 support for OpenGL or is it an actual native API? And to reply to your edit: It's true, nobody prevents anybody from making $1000+ consoles. They sell for shit though. Even PS3 suffered from being a $600 console a lot, a $1000 console would be as successful as the Steambox.
  - shmerl 10y ago
    They support OpenGL and Vulkan now natively on their Switch console. I.e. proper support, and not some fake pseudo API. > They sell for shit though. All it means, that most of those who use consoles don't want to play high end games. And console makers aren't incentivized to market that, because they don't have much competitors. Compare it to mobile hardware as I said. You could argue, that people also don't want to overpay for it. Yet, mobile hardware makers rush to refresh it way more frequently than console makers do, and prices there are more realistic. Competition helps. > a $1000 console would be as successful as the Steambox. It would surely sell less than cheaper ones, but same goes for regular PCs. Only a minority of enthusiasts buy high end computers. The vast majority buy weak laptops and such. But gaming market can address both use cases. I don't see how interface of controller vs mouse + keyboard is supposed to change that.
    - pandaman 10y ago
      > All it means, that most of those who use consoles don't want to play high end games. It's actually opposite. Console audience (maybe with exception for Nintendo) wants to play high end games. This is why high end games sell much more on console SKUs. If by "high end" you mean AAA, of course.
      - shmerl 10y ago
        Well, if they really want high end games, they shell out for PCs and high end GPUs, because as you said, current consoles simply are behind. No API can work around that. By high end I mean demanding, those which heavily load the GPU, and benefit from better ones. So IMHO those who stick to current day consoles, are OK with not getting the max settings in demanding games. But why those who do want more, can't play their games using controller / sofa style gaming? I.e. I don't see an inherent relation between console style gaming and avoiding more expensive hardware.

shmerl 10y ago

Nintendo started to use Vulkan, so things are moving in the right direction, though pretty slowly. > The reason you need a proprietary API on a console is that you cannot make a game running on a $200-300 piece of consumer electronics compete with a game running on a $1000+ PC if they both use the same API. Their primary reason is to tax developers who want to release games cross platform. In practice, no one prevents console makers from making more expensive high end consoles. Those who want demanding games, would buy more expensive hardware. Console is just a type of human interface, nothing inherently in it requires it to be cheap. Same as in regular PCs. The only reason current incumbent consoles are like that is lack of proper competition in their space. Compare it to mobile hardware where competition is fierce.

slimsag 10y ago
On which platform? I would LOVE some sources on this! (seriously! I would really appreciate it)
- shmerl 10y ago
  See https://www.khronos.org/conformance/adopters/conformant-products#vulkan https://www.khronos.org/conformance/adopters/conformant-prod... (Search for Nintendo there). They support Vulkan on the Switch, which shows that they now see benefits in using cross platform APIs.
  - slimsag 10y ago
    <3 thank you! This makes me so much happier about my Switch preorder for gamedev purposes :)
    - shmerl 10y ago
      For me personally, Nintendo is way too locked up and DRMed. I'm more interested in something like this: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/smachteam/smach-z-the-handheld-gaming-pc https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/smachteam/smach-z-the-h... But it's good that they are pushing Vulkan forward.
pandaman 10y ago
I don't develop for Nintendo so I am curious, is it like PS3 support for OpenGL or is it an actual native API? And to reply to your edit: It's true, nobody prevents anybody from making $1000+ consoles. They sell for shit though. Even PS3 suffered from being a $600 console a lot, a $1000 console would be as successful as the Steambox.
- shmerl 10y ago
  They support OpenGL and Vulkan now natively on their Switch console. I.e. proper support, and not some fake pseudo API. > They sell for shit though. All it means, that most of those who use consoles don't want to play high end games. And console makers aren't incentivized to market that, because they don't have much competitors. Compare it to mobile hardware as I said. You could argue, that people also don't want to overpay for it. Yet, mobile hardware makers rush to refresh it way more frequently than console makers do, and prices there are more realistic. Competition helps. > a $1000 console would be as successful as the Steambox. It would surely sell less than cheaper ones, but same goes for regular PCs. Only a minority of enthusiasts buy high end computers. The vast majority buy weak laptops and such. But gaming market can address both use cases. I don't see how interface of controller vs mouse + keyboard is supposed to change that.
  - pandaman 10y ago
    > All it means, that most of those who use consoles don't want to play high end games. It's actually opposite. Console audience (maybe with exception for Nintendo) wants to play high end games. This is why high end games sell much more on console SKUs. If by "high end" you mean AAA, of course.
    - shmerl 10y ago
      Well, if they really want high end games, they shell out for PCs and high end GPUs, because as you said, current consoles simply are behind. No API can work around that. By high end I mean demanding, those which heavily load the GPU, and benefit from better ones. So IMHO those who stick to current day consoles, are OK with not getting the max settings in demanding games. But why those who do want more, can't play their games using controller / sofa style gaming? I.e. I don't see an inherent relation between console style gaming and avoiding more expensive hardware.