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We need a level between Level 4 (the vehicle can operate autonomously in almost all conditions) and Level 5 (no manual control): Level 4.5, wherein the vehicle

We need a level between Level 4 (the vehicle can operate autonomously in almost all conditions) and Level 5 (no manual control): Level 4.5, wherein the vehicle and operate autonomously in almost all conditions and can identify and safely stop in other conditions. If there's a severe blizzard and my car can't see the road in front of it and we're in a 4G dead zone and it can't get an accurate enough GPS fix to figure out where it's going, I'd be perfectly happy if it safely pulled over to the side of the road and stopped. Heck, I'd prefer to have it safely pull over rather than trying to continue based on some premise of "this vehicle be able to navigate under all possible conditions".

arebop 10y ago
I think you've misunderstood level 4; it seems to be defined as you suggest 4.5 ought to be: [http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf ]; the car has to operate safely after autonomous mode is enabled, even if the human has no further interactions (even if the car requests human intervention).
- cperciva 10y ago
  It seems like the definition of level 4 is a bit ambiguous; your link defines it as operating without human intervention, but only in "some driving modes". I've seen this interpreted as meaning that the vehicle can operate without human intervention as long as the driving mode does not change, but may still require human intervention if the conditions change (e.g., it starts snowing, or you exit the highway).
  - exDM69 10y ago
    The key distinction here is that a Level 4 is safe even when the driver does not intervene. If it starts snowing, the car will park by the side of the road if the driver isn't there to pick up the wheel. Level 3 is when you have ample time before the switchover, and Level 2 is when the driver must be there in a matter of seconds.
rubidium 10y ago
I just realized that the Star Wars "you have a 45% chance to death if you proceed to travel" could totally become a reality in hazardous travel conditions. Heck, there could be live read-out of "probability of accident", "probability of death" etc... once we get to level 4 to 5. Computer asks you whether or not to proceed. What's the threshold at which the computer should be programmed not to proceed? This moral rabbit hole gets big picture fast.
maxerickson 10y ago
SAE Level 4 seems to match up with that. https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task, even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene The only way to do all aspects of the dynamic driving task when conditions are untenable is to stop.
btbuildem 10y ago
Chances are in that situation you yourself would be pulling over to regroup.
- cperciva 10y ago
  Exactly! And that's a large part of why I'd feel more comfortable if the car pulled over. (I could imagine a future vehicle pulling over and asking "should I try to continue going slowly, or do you want to wait until conditions improve?")
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    Pulling over isn't that safe. Tons of police die on the side of highways. I mean it's generally a good fallback but you can't just pull over anywhere if in doubt. Would need to be known safe I think.
taneq 10y ago
Agreed. Level 5 autonomy as described by the article was basically "magic driver that can handle any situation ever." By that definition, a competent human driver who's paying attention in clear weather still doesn't quite qualify. There are plenty of conditions that will cause a human driver to pull over, or (worse) to confidently continue without realising how little control they have over their vehicle (just look up 'snow driving accident' on YouTube).
- danenania 10y ago
  It doesn't have to be perfect to be better than any human in any situation (including those that require pulling over). I think that's what level 5 is referring to. Otherwise yeah, it's meaningless.
danenania 10y ago
I think part of the difficulty with level 4 is that you're always going to have to accept some error rate in the 'safely stop' behavior, as that simply isn't possible in all situations.

arebop 10y ago

I think you've misunderstood level 4; it seems to be defined as you suggest 4.5 ought to be: [http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf ]; the car has to operate safely after autonomous mode is enabled, even if the human has no further interactions (even if the car requests human intervention).

cperciva 10y ago
It seems like the definition of level 4 is a bit ambiguous; your link defines it as operating without human intervention, but only in "some driving modes". I've seen this interpreted as meaning that the vehicle can operate without human intervention as long as the driving mode does not change, but may still require human intervention if the conditions change (e.g., it starts snowing, or you exit the highway).
- exDM69 10y ago
  The key distinction here is that a Level 4 is safe even when the driver does not intervene. If it starts snowing, the car will park by the side of the road if the driver isn't there to pick up the wheel. Level 3 is when you have ample time before the switchover, and Level 2 is when the driver must be there in a matter of seconds.

rubidium 10y ago

I just realized that the Star Wars "you have a 45% chance to death if you proceed to travel" could totally become a reality in hazardous travel conditions. Heck, there could be live read-out of "probability of accident", "probability of death" etc... once we get to level 4 to 5. Computer asks you whether or not to proceed. What's the threshold at which the computer should be programmed not to proceed? This moral rabbit hole gets big picture fast.

maxerickson 10y ago

SAE Level 4 seems to match up with that. https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task, even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene The only way to do all aspects of the dynamic driving task when conditions are untenable is to stop.

btbuildem 10y ago

Chances are in that situation you yourself would be pulling over to regroup.

cperciva 10y ago
Exactly! And that's a large part of why I'd feel more comfortable if the car pulled over. (I could imagine a future vehicle pulling over and asking "should I try to continue going slowly, or do you want to wait until conditions improve?")
- brianwawok 10y ago
  Pulling over isn't that safe. Tons of police die on the side of highways. I mean it's generally a good fallback but you can't just pull over anywhere if in doubt. Would need to be known safe I think.

taneq 10y ago

Agreed. Level 5 autonomy as described by the article was basically "magic driver that can handle any situation ever." By that definition, a competent human driver who's paying attention in clear weather still doesn't quite qualify. There are plenty of conditions that will cause a human driver to pull over, or (worse) to confidently continue without realising how little control they have over their vehicle (just look up 'snow driving accident' on YouTube).

danenania 10y ago
It doesn't have to be perfect to be better than any human in any situation (including those that require pulling over). I think that's what level 5 is referring to. Otherwise yeah, it's meaningless.

danenania 10y ago

I think part of the difficulty with level 4 is that you're always going to have to accept some error rate in the 'safely stop' behavior, as that simply isn't possible in all situations.