7 ms·

It hardly seems accurate to say the average software development job is in any way analogous to what Bukowski describes. We're well compensated professionals wh

by pw 10y ago

It hardly seems accurate to say the average software development job is in any way analogous to what Bukowski describes. We're well compensated professionals who, relative to the other professions, tend to have reasonable hours and a lot of latitude in what we work on and when. Yet, we have a supremely weird tendency to identify as some sort of labor slaves.

dvt 10y ago
We're well-compensated commensurate with the skill required (not everyone can write code) and the ebb and flow of the markets (need I remind you of the late 90s?). The work, more often than not, is not interesting, not valuable (in an intrinsic, not financial, sense of the word), and forgettable. I would say that we are the prototypical "company men" of the new millennium: non-essential cogs in a machine that are easily replaced. I think that's Bukowski's point and I wholeheartedly agree. With all this talk of culture, and paid time off, and personal development, the world hasn't changed that much in the past 50 years. At least I have the good sense of knowing what I am. We all would like to think we're Steve Wozniaks. But we're not. Because if we were, we would've co-founded Apple. And this is precisely why I'll be leaving my cushy 6-figure job soon. As Nassim Taleb put it, "Risk takers can be socially unpredictable people. Freedom is always associated with risk taking, whether it led to it or came from it. You take risks, you feel part of history."
- yetihehe 10y ago
  Not all people have talent in music, also not all people have talent in founding companies or working on their own. Some prefer onvenience of working a known routine and having liveable amount of money given to them. Doing something for themselves would mean leaving their zone of comfort and they just don't want to do it for fear of failing. It's basic risk-aversion. Why risk being homeless when you can just go to work doing what you already know and get paid.
  - dvt 10y ago
    > Why risk being homeless when you can just go to work doing what you already know and get paid. That's incredibly hyperbolic. You don't risk financial ruin by trying to take a start-up off the ground for 6 months (~0.6% of your lifespan), especially if you're single in your 20s or 30s. I'd also argue it's probably a lot less talent than you think, but then again, I am a Malcolm Gladwell fan.
    - yetihehe 10y ago
      Yeah, and when after 6 moths your startup doesn't work, no one wanted to invest in it and you got some debt to pay, what can you do? You work 9-5 trying to pay off the debt (which is not massive, but needs to be paid), but you failed, and you don't want to take such risks again. You underestimate risk-aversion of common people. Also, when you don't have your own home (owned, not on mortgage), you MUST work to pay for it. How do you get money for it otherwise? For most people, one failed startup is enough to make them homeless. They don't have enough resources to be safe when their idea doesn't work. Also most of them just don't have viable ideas which can be used to make a good business.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Yes, but this can also be put as "not all people have talent for freedom".
    - yetihehe 10y ago
      I think this actually IS the case, but it isn't polliticaly correct. From my observation most people are not "in constant search of freedom to do anything they want" and just don't bother actively searching for being free from 9-5. There are even people with talent for slavery. There are people on every end of any spectrum you might choose, just look at BDSM scene as an exmple. According to "normal people": "Who in their right mind would choose to be a sex slave and get beaten?". Yet such people exist, I've met them and understand them.
droopyEyelids 10y ago
It's not weird that someone who must stay in an assigned location for at least 8 hours a day doing the same tasks for decades questions the nature of their servitude.
Bulkington 10y ago
Basically, nothing is analogous to what Bukowski describes. This is the basis of his enduring appeal. In terms of art, he was a small-prize lottery winner whom we remember because he kept playing and cashing in small prizes--and screaming he was a born loser. And he was. I'm not sure why he became a hipster icon, but among fellow failing and failed poets/philosophers/novelists, he was our FU unicorn.
pjmlp 10y ago
> Yet, we have a supremely weird tendency to identify as some sort of labor slaves. Depends where on earth you live. I can assure you that while some of my Asian friends doing offshore consulting do have a much better life than many of their country fellows, the way they are seen by the western companies hiring them is not much different from the old colonial days. Also those of us that are lucky to live in countries that have working IT unions, e.g. in Germany, do see the difference.
- Godel_unicode 10y ago
  What benefits do you get from your union, and what are the fees/responsibilities that go with it? I've heard this before, never really heard what the details are though.
  - soperj 10y ago
    I pay about 1200 a year. I have full health benefits, defined benefit pension, and 7 hour work day. If I want (and I do) I can work an extra 49 minutes per day, and take every second Friday off. I start with 15 days holiday, but after working there for 8 years now, I'm up to 22 days holiday (plus 13 stat holidays, and 26 extra days in lieu of those 49 minutes). Any overtime has to be pre-approved, and is paid out at time and a half. If it's over a stat holiday it's at 2.5. Never need to negotiate pay raises because pay is set for the position. Union negotiates the pay raises for cost of living increases. There are benefits and drawbacks, I wouldn't trade the time off though for more money.
    - droopyEyelids 10y ago
      > If I want (and I do) I can work an extra 49 minutes per day, and take every second Friday off God. That would change my life so thoroughly it makes me want to shout.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    In addition to what soperj has answered. Any overtime gets paid either in money or free time. Working beyond 10 hours on a day requires authorization and is extra paid. If doing crushes over lengthy time periods happens due to bad management, it can be reported to the government activities overseeing labor laws. Any expat temporarily working in local projects gets the same work rights as anyone else, regardless of what international companies "think" about labor laws. Failure to comply can be reported to respective authorities. Working over weekends requires special approvals and is properly compensated. Support for fighting against management, when they "think" they know better than what labor laws state about worker rights.
jstewartmobile 10y ago
House slaves are still slaves.

by pw 10y ago

dvt 10y ago

We're well-compensated commensurate with the skill required (not everyone can write code) and the ebb and flow of the markets (need I remind you of the late 90s?). The work, more often than not, is not interesting, not valuable (in an intrinsic, not financial, sense of the word), and forgettable. I would say that we are the prototypical "company men" of the new millennium: non-essential cogs in a machine that are easily replaced. I think that's Bukowski's point and I wholeheartedly agree. With all this talk of culture, and paid time off, and personal development, the world hasn't changed that much in the past 50 years. At least I have the good sense of knowing what I am. We all would like to think we're Steve Wozniaks. But we're not. Because if we were, we would've co-founded Apple. And this is precisely why I'll be leaving my cushy 6-figure job soon. As Nassim Taleb put it, "Risk takers can be socially unpredictable people. Freedom is always associated with risk taking, whether it led to it or came from it. You take risks, you feel part of history."

yetihehe 10y ago
Not all people have talent in music, also not all people have talent in founding companies or working on their own. Some prefer onvenience of working a known routine and having liveable amount of money given to them. Doing something for themselves would mean leaving their zone of comfort and they just don't want to do it for fear of failing. It's basic risk-aversion. Why risk being homeless when you can just go to work doing what you already know and get paid.
- dvt 10y ago
  > Why risk being homeless when you can just go to work doing what you already know and get paid. That's incredibly hyperbolic. You don't risk financial ruin by trying to take a start-up off the ground for 6 months (~0.6% of your lifespan), especially if you're single in your 20s or 30s. I'd also argue it's probably a lot less talent than you think, but then again, I am a Malcolm Gladwell fan.
  - yetihehe 10y ago
    Yeah, and when after 6 moths your startup doesn't work, no one wanted to invest in it and you got some debt to pay, what can you do? You work 9-5 trying to pay off the debt (which is not massive, but needs to be paid), but you failed, and you don't want to take such risks again. You underestimate risk-aversion of common people. Also, when you don't have your own home (owned, not on mortgage), you MUST work to pay for it. How do you get money for it otherwise? For most people, one failed startup is enough to make them homeless. They don't have enough resources to be safe when their idea doesn't work. Also most of them just don't have viable ideas which can be used to make a good business.
- coldtea 10y ago
  Yes, but this can also be put as "not all people have talent for freedom".
  - yetihehe 10y ago
    I think this actually IS the case, but it isn't polliticaly correct. From my observation most people are not "in constant search of freedom to do anything they want" and just don't bother actively searching for being free from 9-5. There are even people with talent for slavery. There are people on every end of any spectrum you might choose, just look at BDSM scene as an exmple. According to "normal people": "Who in their right mind would choose to be a sex slave and get beaten?". Yet such people exist, I've met them and understand them.

droopyEyelids 10y ago

It's not weird that someone who must stay in an assigned location for at least 8 hours a day doing the same tasks for decades questions the nature of their servitude.

Bulkington 10y ago

Basically, nothing is analogous to what Bukowski describes. This is the basis of his enduring appeal. In terms of art, he was a small-prize lottery winner whom we remember because he kept playing and cashing in small prizes--and screaming he was a born loser. And he was. I'm not sure why he became a hipster icon, but among fellow failing and failed poets/philosophers/novelists, he was our FU unicorn.

pjmlp 10y ago

> Yet, we have a supremely weird tendency to identify as some sort of labor slaves. Depends where on earth you live. I can assure you that while some of my Asian friends doing offshore consulting do have a much better life than many of their country fellows, the way they are seen by the western companies hiring them is not much different from the old colonial days. Also those of us that are lucky to live in countries that have working IT unions, e.g. in Germany, do see the difference.

Godel_unicode 10y ago
What benefits do you get from your union, and what are the fees/responsibilities that go with it? I've heard this before, never really heard what the details are though.
- soperj 10y ago
  I pay about 1200 a year. I have full health benefits, defined benefit pension, and 7 hour work day. If I want (and I do) I can work an extra 49 minutes per day, and take every second Friday off. I start with 15 days holiday, but after working there for 8 years now, I'm up to 22 days holiday (plus 13 stat holidays, and 26 extra days in lieu of those 49 minutes). Any overtime has to be pre-approved, and is paid out at time and a half. If it's over a stat holiday it's at 2.5. Never need to negotiate pay raises because pay is set for the position. Union negotiates the pay raises for cost of living increases. There are benefits and drawbacks, I wouldn't trade the time off though for more money.
  - droopyEyelids 10y ago
    > If I want (and I do) I can work an extra 49 minutes per day, and take every second Friday off God. That would change my life so thoroughly it makes me want to shout.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  In addition to what soperj has answered. Any overtime gets paid either in money or free time. Working beyond 10 hours on a day requires authorization and is extra paid. If doing crushes over lengthy time periods happens due to bad management, it can be reported to the government activities overseeing labor laws. Any expat temporarily working in local projects gets the same work rights as anyone else, regardless of what international companies "think" about labor laws. Failure to comply can be reported to respective authorities. Working over weekends requires special approvals and is properly compensated. Support for fighting against management, when they "think" they know better than what labor laws state about worker rights.

jstewartmobile 10y ago

House slaves are still slaves.