4 ms·

I've always wondered: how do they establish a drug causes suicide? I mean they're not literally giving people suicidal thoughts. How do they make people more pr

I've always wondered: how do they establish a drug causes suicide? I mean they're not literally giving people suicidal thoughts. How do they make people more prone to suicide?

cowpewter 10y ago
As far as I'm aware, the currently prevailing theory is that many deeply depressed people may be be having suicidal thoughts, but their depression is also so strong that they don't have the energy and/or motivation to actually go through with it. Apathy is winning. As the drugs start to lift you out of the hole of apathy, you suddenly start to have more energy and motivation, but you're still depressed. So you still are suicidal but now you have the ability to go through with it.
- tcj_phx 10y ago
  This sounds like an apologist's explanation for an inconvenient truth. Sounds reasonable, but falls apart when confronted with actual data. (Edit: I'm sure you were paraphrasing what you'd read somewhere.) Here's a quote from the Boston Globe's 5/7/2000 article: >> Three years before Prozac received approval by the US Food and Drug Administration in late 1987, the German BGA, that country’s FDA equivalent, had such serious reservations about Prozac’s safety that it refused to approve the antidepressant based on Lilly’s studies showing that previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug had a fivefold higher rate of suicides and suicide attempts than those on older antidepressants, and a threefold higher rate than those taking placebos. >> Lilly’s own figures, in reports made available to the Globe, indicate that 1 in 100 previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug in early clinical trials developed a severe form of anxiety and agitation called akathisia, causing them to attempt or commit suicide during the studies. -- http://ahrp.org/prozac-revisited-concerns-about-suicides-surface-boston-globe/ http://ahrp.org/prozac-revisited-concerns-about-suicides-sur... (I don't know anything about this site, but I've read the quote elsewhere so I'm sure it's a true copy of what the Globe actually printed).
  - cowpewter 10y ago
    Oh yeah, it was definitely just something I've heard a bunch of times, and not something I'd personally looked up the research on. Thank you for the links.
- rhizome 10y ago
  I think you're combining Prozac's increased-suicide effect and the well-known danger zone of depression recovery: https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc?t=480 https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc?t=480 I suppose there could be something in Prozac being an engine of recovery without support (or suicide watch), essentially launching people into the danger zone, but I don't know.
lawpoop 10y ago
Reports of users. If users report suicidal thoughts during tests and in "the field", then the drug is said to be connected to suicides when users of it end up offing themselves. The official term is "increased risk of suicide", with the reasoning being suicidal thoughts is a necessary precursor to suicide. But nobody's death certificate actually says that a prescription drug was the cause of death, when it was a suicide.
kqr 10y ago
Drugs are tested on healthy people first. If healthy people with previously no thought of suicide suddenly starts feeling suicidal when in a clinical trial of a drug, it could be outside influence and a huge coincidence, but likely not.

I've always wondered: how do they establish a drug causes suicide? I mean they're not literally giving people suicidal thoughts. How do they make people more prone to suicide?

cowpewter 10y ago

As far as I'm aware, the currently prevailing theory is that many deeply depressed people may be be having suicidal thoughts, but their depression is also so strong that they don't have the energy and/or motivation to actually go through with it. Apathy is winning. As the drugs start to lift you out of the hole of apathy, you suddenly start to have more energy and motivation, but you're still depressed. So you still are suicidal but now you have the ability to go through with it.

tcj_phx 10y ago
This sounds like an apologist's explanation for an inconvenient truth. Sounds reasonable, but falls apart when confronted with actual data. (Edit: I'm sure you were paraphrasing what you'd read somewhere.) Here's a quote from the Boston Globe's 5/7/2000 article: >> Three years before Prozac received approval by the US Food and Drug Administration in late 1987, the German BGA, that country’s FDA equivalent, had such serious reservations about Prozac’s safety that it refused to approve the antidepressant based on Lilly’s studies showing that previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug had a fivefold higher rate of suicides and suicide attempts than those on older antidepressants, and a threefold higher rate than those taking placebos. >> Lilly’s own figures, in reports made available to the Globe, indicate that 1 in 100 previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug in early clinical trials developed a severe form of anxiety and agitation called akathisia, causing them to attempt or commit suicide during the studies. -- http://ahrp.org/prozac-revisited-concerns-about-suicides-surface-boston-globe/ http://ahrp.org/prozac-revisited-concerns-about-suicides-sur... (I don't know anything about this site, but I've read the quote elsewhere so I'm sure it's a true copy of what the Globe actually printed).
- cowpewter 10y ago
  Oh yeah, it was definitely just something I've heard a bunch of times, and not something I'd personally looked up the research on. Thank you for the links.
rhizome 10y ago
I think you're combining Prozac's increased-suicide effect and the well-known danger zone of depression recovery: https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc?t=480 https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc?t=480 I suppose there could be something in Prozac being an engine of recovery without support (or suicide watch), essentially launching people into the danger zone, but I don't know.

lawpoop 10y ago

Reports of users. If users report suicidal thoughts during tests and in "the field", then the drug is said to be connected to suicides when users of it end up offing themselves. The official term is "increased risk of suicide", with the reasoning being suicidal thoughts is a necessary precursor to suicide. But nobody's death certificate actually says that a prescription drug was the cause of death, when it was a suicide.

kqr 10y ago

Drugs are tested on healthy people first. If healthy people with previously no thought of suicide suddenly starts feeling suicidal when in a clinical trial of a drug, it could be outside influence and a huge coincidence, but likely not.