4 ms·

> without invoking all the formal channels to take to the guy remotely In the remote shops I worked people discuss everything (and anything) on IRC, slack, hip

by geoka9 10y ago

> without invoking all the formal channels to take to the guy remotely In the remote shops I worked people discuss everything (and anything) on IRC, slack, hipchat etc. Even their pie in the sky ideas. Never had the problem you described. If anything, people are more open and engaged: they would even sign in after (or before) work to bounce ideas. Sometimes even from their vacations. Never seen that in "onsite-only" shops, BTW (open-space or not).

794CD01 10y ago
That's one of the big benefits of slack, but many organizations don't use it - you have to think to reach out to the person by calling or emailing, or you are scheduling a virtual meeting with something like webex.
- geoka9 10y ago
  Sure, without tools like that being the rule, there's no way to make it work. I sometimes wonder if many of the "on-site only" employers even realize how much they are missing out on. For example, when I'm in the office, I work from 9 to 6, period. When I work for a remote gig, I can be working 12 hours a day without realizing it - my job literally becomes my life. I understand that it may not be very healthy for me, but isn't that every manager's dream? Yes, you have to make sure people like what they are doing, but that's a different problem and relevant even for onsite gigs.
  - Domenic_S 10y ago
    > isn't that every manager's dream? Depends... are you working on the most important stuff first? I'd rather have a strict 9-5'er that's always working in priority order than a 12-2am'er that's scattered and not delivering important work. IMO the most important thing for success in remote work is having a prioritized backlog and defined iteration. It's way too easy to lose hours and days down an unimportant rabbit hole without these things. I'd say many places don't have enough PM rigor to make remote work sensible.
    - meetri 10y ago
      i don't think that's a fair comparison given the likely hood of the reverse also being true. Personally I like to work at home when I have a huge complex task so that I can focus and spend all my time on it. I can easily when WFH start work at 8am and work til 2am because I can't sleep until big problems are solved. I also feel more inclined to hang back take my time to do needed research, where in the office I may not do that so It doesn't appear that I am just browsing the web. Overall, I can have complex tasks completed in a couple days WFH where if I came in to the office it could take weeks.
    - geoka9 10y ago
      Remote doesn't mean isolated. PMs can and should do their job regardless of whether people are remote or not.
      - woot01 10y ago
        It's probably time to call it virtual-first, rather than remote-first, cause remote makes people think isolated.
        OJFord 10y ago
        > cause remote makes people think isolated Which, of course, it is. Isolated: "separated from other persons or things; alone; solitary" [0], "separate from others" [1]. Remote: "far apart; far distant in space; situated at some distance away" [0], "separated by an interval or space greater than usual" [1]. [0] - http://www.dictionary.com http://www.dictionary.com [1] - https://www.merriam-webster.com https://www.merriam-webster.com
    - deadbunny 10y ago
      Not sure how you've made the jump from "office based staff know all priorities and remote staff don't". That's a completely different issue.
      - Domenic_S 10y ago
specialp 10y ago
I visited Fog Creek in NYC once and as you know Joel Spolsky is a very big advocate on giving devs a good work environment. However he is also a big advocate of hiring good people no matter where they live. They had a policy that they had to discuss everything in chat or teleconference from what I saw. They said that despite being a door or 2 down from someone they wanted to talk to the forum of discussion had to be online for the sake of the remotes too. If it isn't like this (and most places aren't like that) you are going to miss out on things when not in the office.
- JBiserkov 10y ago
  That is a very important distinction, between "remote" and "distributed" a.k.a. "remote-first", "remote-only" and "all-hands-remote-even-if-not-really"
- joncalhoun 10y ago
  As someone who has worked remotely a great deal, this claim is generally true. A team is either remote-first, or full-time remote employees won't work well. Notice that I said team. You can still have a remote team inside of a mostly office-going company and it ends up being similar to a satellite office for a regular company. Eg Google has many satellite offices, so they could arguably have "remote" be one of those "offices". I don't see this ever actually happening, but they could do it if they make sure that team is remote-first.
  - arkitaip 10y ago
    THANK YOU for the idea of remote first. It seems like mobile first in that you take what used to be the second priority and make it a first priority and in the process get most if not all of the first priority.
tedmiston 10y ago
I've seen what OP mentioned in startups that are "remote", where remote means a hybrid of on-site / remote, but mostly on-site (i.e., not "remote-first"). In any case where the majority is not remote, I think it applies.

by geoka9 10y ago

794CD01 10y ago

That's one of the big benefits of slack, but many organizations don't use it - you have to think to reach out to the person by calling or emailing, or you are scheduling a virtual meeting with something like webex.

geoka9 10y ago
Sure, without tools like that being the rule, there's no way to make it work. I sometimes wonder if many of the "on-site only" employers even realize how much they are missing out on. For example, when I'm in the office, I work from 9 to 6, period. When I work for a remote gig, I can be working 12 hours a day without realizing it - my job literally becomes my life. I understand that it may not be very healthy for me, but isn't that every manager's dream? Yes, you have to make sure people like what they are doing, but that's a different problem and relevant even for onsite gigs.
- Domenic_S 10y ago
  > isn't that every manager's dream? Depends... are you working on the most important stuff first? I'd rather have a strict 9-5'er that's always working in priority order than a 12-2am'er that's scattered and not delivering important work. IMO the most important thing for success in remote work is having a prioritized backlog and defined iteration. It's way too easy to lose hours and days down an unimportant rabbit hole without these things. I'd say many places don't have enough PM rigor to make remote work sensible.
  - meetri 10y ago
    i don't think that's a fair comparison given the likely hood of the reverse also being true. Personally I like to work at home when I have a huge complex task so that I can focus and spend all my time on it. I can easily when WFH start work at 8am and work til 2am because I can't sleep until big problems are solved. I also feel more inclined to hang back take my time to do needed research, where in the office I may not do that so It doesn't appear that I am just browsing the web. Overall, I can have complex tasks completed in a couple days WFH where if I came in to the office it could take weeks.
  - geoka9 10y ago
    Remote doesn't mean isolated. PMs can and should do their job regardless of whether people are remote or not.
    - woot01 10y ago
      It's probably time to call it virtual-first, rather than remote-first, cause remote makes people think isolated.
      - OJFord 10y ago
        > cause remote makes people think isolated Which, of course, it is. Isolated: "separated from other persons or things; alone; solitary" [0], "separate from others" [1]. Remote: "far apart; far distant in space; situated at some distance away" [0], "separated by an interval or space greater than usual" [1]. [0] - http://www.dictionary.com http://www.dictionary.com [1] - https://www.merriam-webster.com https://www.merriam-webster.com
  - deadbunny 10y ago
    Not sure how you've made the jump from "office based staff know all priorities and remote staff don't". That's a completely different issue.
    - Domenic_S 10y ago

specialp 10y ago

I visited Fog Creek in NYC once and as you know Joel Spolsky is a very big advocate on giving devs a good work environment. However he is also a big advocate of hiring good people no matter where they live. They had a policy that they had to discuss everything in chat or teleconference from what I saw. They said that despite being a door or 2 down from someone they wanted to talk to the forum of discussion had to be online for the sake of the remotes too. If it isn't like this (and most places aren't like that) you are going to miss out on things when not in the office.

JBiserkov 10y ago
That is a very important distinction, between "remote" and "distributed" a.k.a. "remote-first", "remote-only" and "all-hands-remote-even-if-not-really"
joncalhoun 10y ago
As someone who has worked remotely a great deal, this claim is generally true. A team is either remote-first, or full-time remote employees won't work well. Notice that I said team. You can still have a remote team inside of a mostly office-going company and it ends up being similar to a satellite office for a regular company. Eg Google has many satellite offices, so they could arguably have "remote" be one of those "offices". I don't see this ever actually happening, but they could do it if they make sure that team is remote-first.
- arkitaip 10y ago
  THANK YOU for the idea of remote first. It seems like mobile first in that you take what used to be the second priority and make it a first priority and in the process get most if not all of the first priority.

tedmiston 10y ago

I've seen what OP mentioned in startups that are "remote", where remote means a hybrid of on-site / remote, but mostly on-site (i.e., not "remote-first"). In any case where the majority is not remote, I think it applies.