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If I'm paying you, there's probably a lot of things I would like to decide. This isn't an argument against remote work, but I've had all sorts of sleep pattern

If I'm paying you, there's probably a lot of things I would like to decide. This isn't an argument against remote work, but I've had all sorts of sleep patterns during different jobs. I just go to bed at a time when I can get an appropriate enough amount of sleep before I show up for work.

madez 10y ago
How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle? It is an agreement that both sides need to accept. Now, if I'm not willing to give up control over my sleep cycle you lose all sympathy for me? Seriously?
- midgetjones 10y ago
  Well I'm not an employer, but I would probably hire the person that can fit to the schedule that I prefer. Different companies have different needs - some prefer a team that spans an entire day, some prefer everyone to be online at the same time. That really is up to the employer. My argument was totally not against remote work, and I agree with all the points against open-plan offices. However, changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple that it just made the author seem obstructive.
  - madez 10y ago
    That "changing the time you go to bed and wake up is trivially simple" is an assumption of yours, and it is wrong in general.
    - midgetjones 10y ago
      It's an assumption based on my own experience, sure. But I'd like to see any evidence to the contrary if I'm that wrong.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - MaulingMonkey 10y ago
        Several counter-ancedata to your ancedata isn't evidence? EDIT, in case it isn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia > Between 10% and 30% of adults have insomnia at any given point in time and up to half of people have insomnia in a given year.[3][5][11] About 6% of people have insomnia that is not due to another problem and lasts for more than a month.[3] People over the age of 65 are affected more often than younger people.[7] Females are more often affected than males.[5] Descriptions of insomnia occur at least as far back as ancient Greece.[12] Just medicate the problem, right? > While sleeping pills may help, they are associated with injuries, dementia, and addiction.[8][9] Medications are not recommended for more than four or five weeks.[9] The effectiveness and safety of alternative medicine is unclear.[8][9] Oh. Hmm.
        midgetjones 10y ago
        Well I'm glad that I'm not wrong "in general" then. I would never dispute that insomnia is a real problem for people. But "I simply can't come in at 9am, I'm a night owl!" is the attitude I took exception to. I'm resisting the urge to put all the disagreement with my point down to crabbiness from lack of sleep.
        cncool 10y ago
        >>"I simply can't come in at 9am, I'm a night owl!" Do you take exception to that statement if it came from someone with Delayed sleep phase disorder? [1] " According Cary Cooper, a psychologist and professor at Lancaster University Management School, when people who have DSPS wake up early for work, they become sleep deprived which causes them to be less efficient, innovative, and creative at the office. People with DSPS have trouble finding positions that allow them to work hours that let them get enough sleep. This also results in more stress, and can cause workplace accidents. " [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/not-everyones-internal-clock-is-set-for-the-9-to-5/384398/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/not-ever...
  - dboreham 10y ago
    For me the context is important here : we're talking about "people who can competently cut code". These people are so rare within the general population that I'm willing to accept all sorts of hygiene factors such as working strange hours, having poor communication skills, being obsessed with specific programming languages or operating systems, and on and on. If I had 10 solid candidates show up for every job opening, I'd probably pick one that was willing to keep regular office hours. But that's not the situation, typically. Ability to write decent code trumps the other factors.
  - wott 10y ago
    > changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple Jesus, man, how many times will people have to explain to you that in many cases it does not work like that before you understand or at least acknowledge it?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ghaff 10y ago
  There are very few jobs on the planet--including many where you own your own business--that do not involve some degree of being in some place or doing some task at particular times. Some are indeed more flexible than others, including remote programming with minimal team or client interaction. So, yeah, I like others am pretty non-sympathetic to anyone who expects to be paid money for 100% schedule flexibility.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  "How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle?" Then why apply for the job?

madez 10y ago

How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle? It is an agreement that both sides need to accept. Now, if I'm not willing to give up control over my sleep cycle you lose all sympathy for me? Seriously?

midgetjones 10y ago
Well I'm not an employer, but I would probably hire the person that can fit to the schedule that I prefer. Different companies have different needs - some prefer a team that spans an entire day, some prefer everyone to be online at the same time. That really is up to the employer. My argument was totally not against remote work, and I agree with all the points against open-plan offices. However, changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple that it just made the author seem obstructive.
- madez 10y ago
  That "changing the time you go to bed and wake up is trivially simple" is an assumption of yours, and it is wrong in general.
  - midgetjones 10y ago
    It's an assumption based on my own experience, sure. But I'd like to see any evidence to the contrary if I'm that wrong.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - MaulingMonkey 10y ago
      Several counter-ancedata to your ancedata isn't evidence? EDIT, in case it isn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia > Between 10% and 30% of adults have insomnia at any given point in time and up to half of people have insomnia in a given year.[3][5][11] About 6% of people have insomnia that is not due to another problem and lasts for more than a month.[3] People over the age of 65 are affected more often than younger people.[7] Females are more often affected than males.[5] Descriptions of insomnia occur at least as far back as ancient Greece.[12] Just medicate the problem, right? > While sleeping pills may help, they are associated with injuries, dementia, and addiction.[8][9] Medications are not recommended for more than four or five weeks.[9] The effectiveness and safety of alternative medicine is unclear.[8][9] Oh. Hmm.
      - midgetjones 10y ago
        Well I'm glad that I'm not wrong "in general" then. I would never dispute that insomnia is a real problem for people. But "I simply can't come in at 9am, I'm a night owl!" is the attitude I took exception to. I'm resisting the urge to put all the disagreement with my point down to crabbiness from lack of sleep.
        cncool 10y ago
        >>"I simply can't come in at 9am, I'm a night owl!" Do you take exception to that statement if it came from someone with Delayed sleep phase disorder? [1] " According Cary Cooper, a psychologist and professor at Lancaster University Management School, when people who have DSPS wake up early for work, they become sleep deprived which causes them to be less efficient, innovative, and creative at the office. People with DSPS have trouble finding positions that allow them to work hours that let them get enough sleep. This also results in more stress, and can cause workplace accidents. " [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/not-everyones-internal-clock-is-set-for-the-9-to-5/384398/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/not-ever...
- dboreham 10y ago
  For me the context is important here : we're talking about "people who can competently cut code". These people are so rare within the general population that I'm willing to accept all sorts of hygiene factors such as working strange hours, having poor communication skills, being obsessed with specific programming languages or operating systems, and on and on. If I had 10 solid candidates show up for every job opening, I'd probably pick one that was willing to keep regular office hours. But that's not the situation, typically. Ability to write decent code trumps the other factors.
- wott 10y ago
  > changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple Jesus, man, how many times will people have to explain to you that in many cases it does not work like that before you understand or at least acknowledge it?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ghaff 10y ago
There are very few jobs on the planet--including many where you own your own business--that do not involve some degree of being in some place or doing some task at particular times. Some are indeed more flexible than others, including remote programming with minimal team or client interaction. So, yeah, I like others am pretty non-sympathetic to anyone who expects to be paid money for 100% schedule flexibility.
st3v3r 10y ago
"How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle?" Then why apply for the job?