5 ms·

I also strongly disagree with you. How dare you decide for others how their sleep cycle should be?

by madez 10y ago

midgetjones 10y ago
If I'm paying you, there's probably a lot of things I would like to decide. This isn't an argument against remote work, but I've had all sorts of sleep patterns during different jobs. I just go to bed at a time when I can get an appropriate enough amount of sleep before I show up for work.
- madez 10y ago
  How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle? It is an agreement that both sides need to accept. Now, if I'm not willing to give up control over my sleep cycle you lose all sympathy for me? Seriously?
  - midgetjones 10y ago
    Well I'm not an employer, but I would probably hire the person that can fit to the schedule that I prefer. Different companies have different needs - some prefer a team that spans an entire day, some prefer everyone to be online at the same time. That really is up to the employer. My argument was totally not against remote work, and I agree with all the points against open-plan offices. However, changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple that it just made the author seem obstructive.
    - madez 10y ago
      That "changing the time you go to bed and wake up is trivially simple" is an assumption of yours, and it is wrong in general.
      - midgetjones 10y ago
        It's an assumption based on my own experience, sure. But I'd like to see any evidence to the contrary if I'm that wrong.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        MaulingMonkey 10y ago
        Several counter-ancedata to your ancedata isn't evidence? EDIT, in case it isn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia > Between 10% and 30% of adults have insomnia at any given point in time and up to half of people have insomnia in a given year.[3][5][11] About 6% of people have insomnia that is not due to another problem and lasts for more than a month.[3] People over the age of 65 are affected more often than younger people.[7] Females are more often affected than males.[5] Descriptions of insomnia occur at least as far back as ancient Greece.[12] Just medicate the problem, right? > While sleeping pills may help, they are associated with injuries, dementia, and addiction.[8][9] Medications are not recommended for more than four or five weeks.[9] The effectiveness and safety of alternative medicine is unclear.[8][9] Oh. Hmm.
        midgetjones 10y ago
        Well I'm glad that I'm not wrong "in general" then. I would never dispute that insomnia is a real problem for people. But "I simply can't come in at 9am, I'm a night owl!" is the attitude I took exception to. I'm resisting the urge to put all the disagreement with my point down to crabbiness from lack of sleep.
        cncool 10y ago
        >>"I simply can't come in at 9am, I'm a night owl!" Do you take exception to that statement if it came from someone with Delayed sleep phase disorder? [1] " According Cary Cooper, a psychologist and professor at Lancaster University Management School, when people who have DSPS wake up early for work, they become sleep deprived which causes them to be less efficient, innovative, and creative at the office. People with DSPS have trouble finding positions that allow them to work hours that let them get enough sleep. This also results in more stress, and can cause workplace accidents. " [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/not-everyones-internal-clock-is-set-for-the-9-to-5/384398/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/not-ever...
    - dboreham 10y ago
      For me the context is important here : we're talking about "people who can competently cut code". These people are so rare within the general population that I'm willing to accept all sorts of hygiene factors such as working strange hours, having poor communication skills, being obsessed with specific programming languages or operating systems, and on and on. If I had 10 solid candidates show up for every job opening, I'd probably pick one that was willing to keep regular office hours. But that's not the situation, typically. Ability to write decent code trumps the other factors.
    - wott 10y ago
      > changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple Jesus, man, how many times will people have to explain to you that in many cases it does not work like that before you understand or at least acknowledge it?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - ghaff 10y ago
    There are very few jobs on the planet--including many where you own your own business--that do not involve some degree of being in some place or doing some task at particular times. Some are indeed more flexible than others, including remote programming with minimal team or client interaction. So, yeah, I like others am pretty non-sympathetic to anyone who expects to be paid money for 100% schedule flexibility.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    "How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle?" Then why apply for the job?
basseq 10y ago
Depends on the role and the schedule of the rest of the team. It's absolutely reasonable to expect someone in the office by 9am, in the same way that it's absolutely reasonable to work out an "alternate work schedule". And if you're the kind of person with a "non-traditional" sleep schedule, the onus is on you to ensure the environment you're joining will support that. The "I'll show up when I want" reeks of entitlement.
- UK-AL 10y ago
  I completely agree that this is an agreement between employee and employer. If the employer wants to pay more for the privilege on or or lose out on good employees for pure office working thats up to them. However the converse of "I'll show up when I want", in this case "I expect you turn up exactly when i say", is entitlement from the employer. It's just an established one.
  - nilkn 10y ago
    > It's just an established one. I'd say that this is more important than your comment suggests. Across society at large, it's generally incredibly valuable that workers tend to work at the same time and be available to work together at the same time. This not only enhances productivity at work, but also enhances social lives since as a corollary it means that many workers tend to be off work at the same time too. If anybody you work with directly needs to work during the day, then in most cases you will need to work during the day as well -- otherwise you'd be hindering the ability of that person to communicate with you when they need to. For instance, maybe your boss has to work during normal business hours because he/she is in frequent communication with other business contacts. But your boss also needs to be able to get into contact with you on the spot, often to facilitate said communication with other contacts. So you pretty much need to work during normal hours now too. It's easy to see how the network effect of this can be very powerful, and I think this explains why there's an established asymmetry here between employer and employee.
    - UK-AL 10y ago
      Just because it's convient for employer doesn't mean it's not entitlement. There's plenty of necessary reasons to work from home to
st3v3r 10y ago
I mean, there are plenty of programming jobs with flex hours out there.

I also strongly disagree with you. How dare you decide for others how their sleep cycle should be?

by madez 10y ago

I also strongly disagree with you. How dare you decide for others how their sleep cycle should be?

If I'm paying you, there's probably a lot of things I would like to decide. This isn't an argument against remote work, but I've had all sorts of sleep patterns during different jobs. I just go to bed at a time when I can get an appropriate enough amount of sleep before I show up for work.

madez 10y ago
How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle? It is an agreement that both sides need to accept. Now, if I'm not willing to give up control over my sleep cycle you lose all sympathy for me? Seriously?
- midgetjones 10y ago
  Well I'm not an employer, but I would probably hire the person that can fit to the schedule that I prefer. Different companies have different needs - some prefer a team that spans an entire day, some prefer everyone to be online at the same time. That really is up to the employer. My argument was totally not against remote work, and I agree with all the points against open-plan offices. However, changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple that it just made the author seem obstructive.
  - madez 10y ago
    That "changing the time you go to bed and wake up is trivially simple" is an assumption of yours, and it is wrong in general.
    - midgetjones 10y ago
      It's an assumption based on my own experience, sure. But I'd like to see any evidence to the contrary if I'm that wrong.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - MaulingMonkey 10y ago
        Several counter-ancedata to your ancedata isn't evidence? EDIT, in case it isn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia > Between 10% and 30% of adults have insomnia at any given point in time and up to half of people have insomnia in a given year.[3][5][11] About 6% of people have insomnia that is not due to another problem and lasts for more than a month.[3] People over the age of 65 are affected more often than younger people.[7] Females are more often affected than males.[5] Descriptions of insomnia occur at least as far back as ancient Greece.[12] Just medicate the problem, right? > While sleeping pills may help, they are associated with injuries, dementia, and addiction.[8][9] Medications are not recommended for more than four or five weeks.[9] The effectiveness and safety of alternative medicine is unclear.[8][9] Oh. Hmm.
        midgetjones 10y ago
        Well I'm glad that I'm not wrong "in general" then. I would never dispute that insomnia is a real problem for people. But "I simply can't come in at 9am, I'm a night owl!" is the attitude I took exception to. I'm resisting the urge to put all the disagreement with my point down to crabbiness from lack of sleep.
        cncool 10y ago
        >>"I simply can't come in at 9am, I'm a night owl!" Do you take exception to that statement if it came from someone with Delayed sleep phase disorder? [1] " According Cary Cooper, a psychologist and professor at Lancaster University Management School, when people who have DSPS wake up early for work, they become sleep deprived which causes them to be less efficient, innovative, and creative at the office. People with DSPS have trouble finding positions that allow them to work hours that let them get enough sleep. This also results in more stress, and can cause workplace accidents. " [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/not-everyones-internal-clock-is-set-for-the-9-to-5/384398/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/not-ever...
  - dboreham 10y ago
    For me the context is important here : we're talking about "people who can competently cut code". These people are so rare within the general population that I'm willing to accept all sorts of hygiene factors such as working strange hours, having poor communication skills, being obsessed with specific programming languages or operating systems, and on and on. If I had 10 solid candidates show up for every job opening, I'd probably pick one that was willing to keep regular office hours. But that's not the situation, typically. Ability to write decent code trumps the other factors.
  - wott 10y ago
    > changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple Jesus, man, how many times will people have to explain to you that in many cases it does not work like that before you understand or at least acknowledge it?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ghaff 10y ago
  There are very few jobs on the planet--including many where you own your own business--that do not involve some degree of being in some place or doing some task at particular times. Some are indeed more flexible than others, including remote programming with minimal team or client interaction. So, yeah, I like others am pretty non-sympathetic to anyone who expects to be paid money for 100% schedule flexibility.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  "How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle?" Then why apply for the job?

basseq 10y ago

Depends on the role and the schedule of the rest of the team. It's absolutely reasonable to expect someone in the office by 9am, in the same way that it's absolutely reasonable to work out an "alternate work schedule". And if you're the kind of person with a "non-traditional" sleep schedule, the onus is on you to ensure the environment you're joining will support that. The "I'll show up when I want" reeks of entitlement.

UK-AL 10y ago
I completely agree that this is an agreement between employee and employer. If the employer wants to pay more for the privilege on or or lose out on good employees for pure office working thats up to them. However the converse of "I'll show up when I want", in this case "I expect you turn up exactly when i say", is entitlement from the employer. It's just an established one.
- nilkn 10y ago
  > It's just an established one. I'd say that this is more important than your comment suggests. Across society at large, it's generally incredibly valuable that workers tend to work at the same time and be available to work together at the same time. This not only enhances productivity at work, but also enhances social lives since as a corollary it means that many workers tend to be off work at the same time too. If anybody you work with directly needs to work during the day, then in most cases you will need to work during the day as well -- otherwise you'd be hindering the ability of that person to communicate with you when they need to. For instance, maybe your boss has to work during normal business hours because he/she is in frequent communication with other business contacts. But your boss also needs to be able to get into contact with you on the spot, often to facilitate said communication with other contacts. So you pretty much need to work during normal hours now too. It's easy to see how the network effect of this can be very powerful, and I think this explains why there's an established asymmetry here between employer and employee.
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    Just because it's convient for employer doesn't mean it's not entitlement. There's plenty of necessary reasons to work from home to

st3v3r 10y ago

I mean, there are plenty of programming jobs with flex hours out there.