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> Here’s the cycle when I’m forced to be in a chair in your office at 9am This is where the author lost any sympathy from me. It just seems petulant. Go to bed

> Here’s the cycle when I’m forced to be in a chair in your office at 9am This is where the author lost any sympathy from me. It just seems petulant. Go to bed earlier. Your body will get used to it.

NickBusey 10y ago
Seriously? Some of us are night owls. Maybe musicians who need to be up late for shows (like me). Not everyone is you.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- midgetjones 10y ago
  Funnily enough I'm a musician too. But that isn't really relevant to the article. Of course you're a night owl if that's when the majority of your work takes place. But the article was talking about working for a startup. If they want you to work 9-5 so that you can communicate with the team, then get an early night. A closer analogy might be you telling a bandleader to shift the gig forward a couple of hours because you don't like going to bed too late.
  - madez 10y ago
    It is not always about "not liking going to bed" at a certain time. Sleep is not something everybody can easily control. Not giving the body sleep when it asks for it can easily become a health risk.
    - midgetjones 10y ago
      Sure, if you continue going to bed at 2am and having to work at 9, then I can see how it can become a health risk. But if your body doesn't adjust after a week of going to bed at 11pm, then you probably should see your doctor.
      - MaulingMonkey 10y ago
        > But if your body doesn't adjust after a week of going to bed at 11pm That's not the problem. The problem is getting to sleep before 2am after having gone to bed at 11pm. My general answer has been 6+ alarms in the morning, lots of morning caffeine in the form of sugary energy drinks, and small-to-medium amounts of sleep deprivation to "fix" that issue (accepting a certain baseline level of exhaustion to enable me to fall asleep at 11pm.) It works, but it's far from optimal. I'm not going to whine about it on a day-to-day basis - that would be petulant - but I am going to feign mock horror and incredulity about the existence of morning people, if only for my own amusement. I'm not going to pretend it's not a thing. Recently, I cut back to near-zero caffeine - as I've done many times before - and found myself naturally adjusting to a morning-biased, 24 hour schedule - for the first time in decades. This was such a startling change that I'm only half joking when I say I thought about seeing a doctor. But I imagine this is merely what life has been like for, say, the likes of you - all along. Perfectly natural. Nothing to panic about.
        midgetjones 10y ago
        > found myself naturally adjusting to a morning-biased, 24 hour schedule So have you stuck with this? Or do you prefer the excitement of not knowing? I think I may - possibly through my own hyperbole - given the impression that I'm some sort of narcoleptic unicorn that can sleep on command, but really that's not the case at all. I've experienced plenty of trouble sleeping at various points in my life, but very rarely was it because I was 'a night owl' or 'a morning person', but more that I was stressed, or drinking too much coffee, or too much alcohol, etc., etc. But, like you, I've got it under control mainly through common sense. At no point did I ever feel like it was my employer that had the problem because they expected me there at 9am.
        MaulingMonkey 10y ago
        > So have you stuck with this? For the past 2 weeks, at least. It is very strange. > I think I may - possibly through my own hyperbole - given the impression that I'm some sort of narcoleptic unicorn that can sleep on command No, but you've given the impression that you at least have it more under control than I've had it. I mentioned 6+ alarms earlier - this is not hyperbole, there have been times when it's been a regular thing, and on more than one occasion I have slept through them all. Rather embarrassing. > But, like you, I've got it under control mainly through common sense. I'm not sure what I've done qualifies as common sense. The amount of sugary energy drinks I've consumed (hating coffee) cannot in any way be considered healthy - I'm lucky my family isn't prone to diabetes, and that the headaches only last a couple days when going cold turkey. While my constitution can bare it, what I've done would probably kill others. The sleep deprivation is not healthy either. I've controlled it, yes - but at what cost? > At no point did I ever feel like it was my employer that had the problem because they expected me there at 9am. I don't see it as a blame thing. But I've had employers offer "core hours" that didn't start until 11am, and taken advantage of that as a nice common sense perk that balances the need for collaboration and people's different schedules in what's hopefully a win for both myself (better health and happiness) and the company (better productivity). All other things equal between two job offers, and I will absolutely take the one with more flexible hours. And I will continue to do so even if I somehow end up permanently transforming into not-a-night-owl - because there will be times I get stressed, drink too many energy drinks, etc. etc. - and I would argue that this is the common sense choice for both me and for my employer.
- epimetheus 10y ago
  I much prefer starting earlier and getting done earlier. A lot of this has to do with my schedule vs the babysitter's (my parents) schedule, but getting done at 3pm is a great feeling. Getting up at 4am (and starting work at 6am) isn't always fun, but I'm a bit of an early bird anyway.
- LordKano 10y ago
  I am such a person. I got a job that requires me to be in the office at 08:30 and I do it. I have no difficulty going to bed at 11:30 and being asleep by 12:30. I have no difficulty getting up at 06:40 and starting my day. I can do all of these things because I am a responsible adult. But I don't feel right. I'm not a morning person. I am most productive in the afternoon. Telecommuting from 10:00 to 18:00 would make the most sense for me but I understand that most employers simply do not have the flexibility to come up with custom solutions for everyone.
  - madez 10y ago
    > I can do all of these things because I am a responsible adult. You are saying that if anyone is not willing to do these things, they cannot be responsible adults. How rude and arrogant of you, if you really mean what you say.
    - castis 10y ago
      If you cannot go to bed at a reasonable time in order to function at a job you have been hired to do, then no, you are not a responsible adult.
      - madez 10y ago
        You should ask someone who actually knows about that topic, e.g. any doctor that works with people with sleep problems, what they think of your statement.
        castis 10y ago
        I suppose I should have said "willing to go to bed at a reasonable time" but I don't supposed that would have left you satiated. > You should ask someone who actually knows about that topic The irony of you calling someone out for being rude is almost palpable.
        madez 10y ago
- ryandrake 10y ago
  Is there any science that suggests that people are hard-wired to be "early" or "late" people, and that there's just nothing one can do to change it? Legitimately curious. To me "I'm just not a morning person" seems like a pretty weak excuse for not being able to function as a professional because it's a little early in the morning, but maybe it's been shown that this is some intrinsic genetic trait that you can't control...?
  - arctangent 10y ago
    It would be extremely unusual if all people had exactly the same circadian rhythm; some variation in sleep-wake cycles between individuals would be expected in the same way as a variation in height would be expected. Wikipedia [1] says: "Normal variation in chronotype encompasses sleep–wake cycles that are from about two hours earlier to about two hours later than average." (Unfortunately the citation link is broken.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype Also worth reading: [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_owl_(person) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_owl_(person) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lark_(person) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lark_(person)
MadManE 10y ago
I don't think that the particular time is the issue here. It's that there is a specific time at all. On top of that, the thoughtless commitment to a particular amount of time being in that chair is just insulting. I agree with the title - if you don't trust me, then you shouldn't have hired me.
madez 10y ago
I also strongly disagree with you. How dare you decide for others how their sleep cycle should be?
- midgetjones 10y ago
  If I'm paying you, there's probably a lot of things I would like to decide. This isn't an argument against remote work, but I've had all sorts of sleep patterns during different jobs. I just go to bed at a time when I can get an appropriate enough amount of sleep before I show up for work.
  - madez 10y ago
    How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle? It is an agreement that both sides need to accept. Now, if I'm not willing to give up control over my sleep cycle you lose all sympathy for me? Seriously?
    - midgetjones 10y ago
      Well I'm not an employer, but I would probably hire the person that can fit to the schedule that I prefer. Different companies have different needs - some prefer a team that spans an entire day, some prefer everyone to be online at the same time. That really is up to the employer. My argument was totally not against remote work, and I agree with all the points against open-plan offices. However, changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple that it just made the author seem obstructive.
      - madez 10y ago
        That "changing the time you go to bed and wake up is trivially simple" is an assumption of yours, and it is wrong in general.
        midgetjones 10y ago
        It's an assumption based on my own experience, sure. But I'd like to see any evidence to the contrary if I'm that wrong.

NickBusey 10y ago

Seriously? Some of us are night owls. Maybe musicians who need to be up late for shows (like me). Not everyone is you.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
midgetjones 10y ago
Funnily enough I'm a musician too. But that isn't really relevant to the article. Of course you're a night owl if that's when the majority of your work takes place. But the article was talking about working for a startup. If they want you to work 9-5 so that you can communicate with the team, then get an early night. A closer analogy might be you telling a bandleader to shift the gig forward a couple of hours because you don't like going to bed too late.
- madez 10y ago
  It is not always about "not liking going to bed" at a certain time. Sleep is not something everybody can easily control. Not giving the body sleep when it asks for it can easily become a health risk.
  - midgetjones 10y ago
    Sure, if you continue going to bed at 2am and having to work at 9, then I can see how it can become a health risk. But if your body doesn't adjust after a week of going to bed at 11pm, then you probably should see your doctor.
    - MaulingMonkey 10y ago
      > But if your body doesn't adjust after a week of going to bed at 11pm That's not the problem. The problem is getting to sleep before 2am after having gone to bed at 11pm. My general answer has been 6+ alarms in the morning, lots of morning caffeine in the form of sugary energy drinks, and small-to-medium amounts of sleep deprivation to "fix" that issue (accepting a certain baseline level of exhaustion to enable me to fall asleep at 11pm.) It works, but it's far from optimal. I'm not going to whine about it on a day-to-day basis - that would be petulant - but I am going to feign mock horror and incredulity about the existence of morning people, if only for my own amusement. I'm not going to pretend it's not a thing. Recently, I cut back to near-zero caffeine - as I've done many times before - and found myself naturally adjusting to a morning-biased, 24 hour schedule - for the first time in decades. This was such a startling change that I'm only half joking when I say I thought about seeing a doctor. But I imagine this is merely what life has been like for, say, the likes of you - all along. Perfectly natural. Nothing to panic about.
      - midgetjones 10y ago
        > found myself naturally adjusting to a morning-biased, 24 hour schedule So have you stuck with this? Or do you prefer the excitement of not knowing? I think I may - possibly through my own hyperbole - given the impression that I'm some sort of narcoleptic unicorn that can sleep on command, but really that's not the case at all. I've experienced plenty of trouble sleeping at various points in my life, but very rarely was it because I was 'a night owl' or 'a morning person', but more that I was stressed, or drinking too much coffee, or too much alcohol, etc., etc. But, like you, I've got it under control mainly through common sense. At no point did I ever feel like it was my employer that had the problem because they expected me there at 9am.
        MaulingMonkey 10y ago
        > So have you stuck with this? For the past 2 weeks, at least. It is very strange. > I think I may - possibly through my own hyperbole - given the impression that I'm some sort of narcoleptic unicorn that can sleep on command No, but you've given the impression that you at least have it more under control than I've had it. I mentioned 6+ alarms earlier - this is not hyperbole, there have been times when it's been a regular thing, and on more than one occasion I have slept through them all. Rather embarrassing. > But, like you, I've got it under control mainly through common sense. I'm not sure what I've done qualifies as common sense. The amount of sugary energy drinks I've consumed (hating coffee) cannot in any way be considered healthy - I'm lucky my family isn't prone to diabetes, and that the headaches only last a couple days when going cold turkey. While my constitution can bare it, what I've done would probably kill others. The sleep deprivation is not healthy either. I've controlled it, yes - but at what cost? > At no point did I ever feel like it was my employer that had the problem because they expected me there at 9am. I don't see it as a blame thing. But I've had employers offer "core hours" that didn't start until 11am, and taken advantage of that as a nice common sense perk that balances the need for collaboration and people's different schedules in what's hopefully a win for both myself (better health and happiness) and the company (better productivity). All other things equal between two job offers, and I will absolutely take the one with more flexible hours. And I will continue to do so even if I somehow end up permanently transforming into not-a-night-owl - because there will be times I get stressed, drink too many energy drinks, etc. etc. - and I would argue that this is the common sense choice for both me and for my employer.
epimetheus 10y ago
I much prefer starting earlier and getting done earlier. A lot of this has to do with my schedule vs the babysitter's (my parents) schedule, but getting done at 3pm is a great feeling. Getting up at 4am (and starting work at 6am) isn't always fun, but I'm a bit of an early bird anyway.
LordKano 10y ago
I am such a person. I got a job that requires me to be in the office at 08:30 and I do it. I have no difficulty going to bed at 11:30 and being asleep by 12:30. I have no difficulty getting up at 06:40 and starting my day. I can do all of these things because I am a responsible adult. But I don't feel right. I'm not a morning person. I am most productive in the afternoon. Telecommuting from 10:00 to 18:00 would make the most sense for me but I understand that most employers simply do not have the flexibility to come up with custom solutions for everyone.
- madez 10y ago
  > I can do all of these things because I am a responsible adult. You are saying that if anyone is not willing to do these things, they cannot be responsible adults. How rude and arrogant of you, if you really mean what you say.
  - castis 10y ago
    If you cannot go to bed at a reasonable time in order to function at a job you have been hired to do, then no, you are not a responsible adult.
    - madez 10y ago
      You should ask someone who actually knows about that topic, e.g. any doctor that works with people with sleep problems, what they think of your statement.
      - castis 10y ago
        I suppose I should have said "willing to go to bed at a reasonable time" but I don't supposed that would have left you satiated. > You should ask someone who actually knows about that topic The irony of you calling someone out for being rude is almost palpable.
        madez 10y ago
ryandrake 10y ago
Is there any science that suggests that people are hard-wired to be "early" or "late" people, and that there's just nothing one can do to change it? Legitimately curious. To me "I'm just not a morning person" seems like a pretty weak excuse for not being able to function as a professional because it's a little early in the morning, but maybe it's been shown that this is some intrinsic genetic trait that you can't control...?
- arctangent 10y ago
  It would be extremely unusual if all people had exactly the same circadian rhythm; some variation in sleep-wake cycles between individuals would be expected in the same way as a variation in height would be expected. Wikipedia [1] says: "Normal variation in chronotype encompasses sleep–wake cycles that are from about two hours earlier to about two hours later than average." (Unfortunately the citation link is broken.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype Also worth reading: [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_owl_(person) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_owl_(person) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lark_(person) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lark_(person)

MadManE 10y ago

I don't think that the particular time is the issue here. It's that there is a specific time at all. On top of that, the thoughtless commitment to a particular amount of time being in that chair is just insulting. I agree with the title - if you don't trust me, then you shouldn't have hired me.

madez 10y ago

I also strongly disagree with you. How dare you decide for others how their sleep cycle should be?

midgetjones 10y ago
If I'm paying you, there's probably a lot of things I would like to decide. This isn't an argument against remote work, but I've had all sorts of sleep patterns during different jobs. I just go to bed at a time when I can get an appropriate enough amount of sleep before I show up for work.
- madez 10y ago
  How about I'm not willing to work for you if you want control over my sleep cycle? It is an agreement that both sides need to accept. Now, if I'm not willing to give up control over my sleep cycle you lose all sympathy for me? Seriously?
  - midgetjones 10y ago
    Well I'm not an employer, but I would probably hire the person that can fit to the schedule that I prefer. Different companies have different needs - some prefer a team that spans an entire day, some prefer everyone to be online at the same time. That really is up to the employer. My argument was totally not against remote work, and I agree with all the points against open-plan offices. However, changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple that it just made the author seem obstructive.
    - madez 10y ago
      That "changing the time you go to bed and wake up is trivially simple" is an assumption of yours, and it is wrong in general.
      - midgetjones 10y ago
        It's an assumption based on my own experience, sure. But I'd like to see any evidence to the contrary if I'm that wrong.