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A few friends of mine did exactly the same. They still have their jobs (btw, both are Software Engineers). 1. He had 0 idea of coding, or why something was don
by ohstopitu 10y ago
A few friends of mine did exactly the same. They still have their jobs (btw, both are Software Engineers).
1. He had 0 idea of coding, or why something was done - basically copy paste from github/stackoverflow and call it a day.
2. She has some basic understanding, but basically got into CS because she had heard that SE/CS Majors made "big bucks" and she thought she "knew computers"
Both graduated 4 years later, just as clueless but with degrees. When it came to interviews, both had 0 idea of the questions asked - to the point that I gave up helping them (if you can't do fizzbuzz, linked lists etc in any language or even psudocode, then you should really learn that first).
So they decided to do exactly what "Brian" did - downloaded a few of my public repos, uploaded as their own (btw it's funny because my name and email is on the README, and on almost every file - autogenerated with IntelliJ/Webstorm).
Somehow they land interviews, and both of them gets jobs at this fancy startup (making way more than me). One of them realizes that she's way over and since I was not helping, she decided to outsource it to Fiverr. She's been there 2 months and no one seems to raise any issues.
At times like this I kinda loose a bit of faith in our community - If that was what was needed, Why am I getting paid less to do more honest work? :/
- alistproducer2 10y agoDoes it really work like that in the Valley? I might have to come out there. Where I'm at, it's mostly big established fortune 5's. they hire they're fair share of idiots with degrees but I'm not sure you'd be able to make it by outsourcing the Fiverr.
- ohstopitu 10y agoThis "startup" is based in Vancouver. And, I've got a feeling they'll figure it out when they have bugs, or ask her to fix bugs instead of adding standalone features. (Unless she sends over the entire repo to the person she hires - at which point, I'm 100% sure she's breaking their contract).
- jstanley 10y ago> Why am I getting paid less to do more honest work? :/ You're optimising for doing good work. They're optimising for landing high-paying jobs.
- disease 10y agoI've noticed a rather sad correlation of passionate software developers that are interested in the trade with low pay. At this point, I don't even know if employers are legitimately interested in "hiring the best". In my experience companies that aren't Google or Microsoft generally just want to hire the cheapest possible labor. If they luck out and get a strong engineer that can't effectively negotiate for themselves, that's just the icing on the cake. Note that I'm currently doing software development in the Midwest, so my view may be biased.
- Bartweiss 10y agoHaving worked in the Midwest, I had a lot of terrible experiences I haven't seen replicated on either coast. There seem to be a lot of midwestern companies full of programmers, selling software products, which don't see themselves as "software companies" (like Yahoo is a "media company"). Without exception, I found that those companies were trying to buy code like it came off an assembly line - paying lots of people low wages to pump out their daily lines. Some of the "smarter" ones had realized that this offer was so unpalatable that they couldn't get existing programmers, and were shipping new hires to bootcamps to create candidates. (Cynically, I assume that they have an incentive to ensure these bootcamps teach bad, cargo-cult programming - if they were good they'd quickly lose trainees to better jobs.) Job hunting out there, at least half the prospects I turned up had something hideously bad involved. Some mandated novice-bootcamp attendance, starting even experienced devs at "See Spot run, see Spot code". Some wanted 6 month (or 1 year!) trial periods on minimal salary or even sub-minimum stipends. Some just wanted the usual bullshit like "5 years of Java 8 experience". Many had ludicrous location requirements, like cycling through shifts in offices around the country before ending up in rural Montana. Pretty much all of it felt like commodity purchasing - I wasn't an employee, I was an agreement to deliver "six codes per week". Moving back to the coast, and seeing a lot of self-described software companies, I have a lot more hope that people are at least trying to hire well. There are just a lot of companies which haven't gotten the message.
- csydas 10y agoDon't be disheartened - most industries are like this, and it even has an idiom "fake it till you make it". My current work allows me a pretty decent look at literally thousands of different IT infrastructure set ups by this point only half a year in, and I'm still explaining the basics of IT administration, infrastructure, SQL queries, and so on to people with the title "Senior ______" and a list of certifications that adds a good 4 MB to each of their emails for all the banners. Try not to worry about it, and don't enable them either. Be professional, but be firm. I won't promise that they will get their comeuppance or that you will be rewarded, but you can at least leave every day not having to look over your shoulder or double checking that you covered all your bases. In the long run, you'll have the knowledge to do what is necessary for future growth in your career, they will have to keep inventing new ways to fake it.
- WalterSear 10y ago"Fake it till you make it" doesn't mean this, any more than "God helps those who help themselves" is an exhortation to stealing.
- WalterSear 10y agoUltimately, it's shit like this that is why we are made to do Fizzbuzz puzzles during interviews.
- flukus 10y agoIt's shit like this that make me happy to do Fizzbuzz puzzles in interviews, because when you work somewhere that doesn't...
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- nhebb 10y agoOK, I laughed at the Fiverr bit, but I have no idea how someone can cope with living a lie like that. The stress of deceit would cripple me.
- Kurtz79 10y agoAgreed completely, I really don't get people that fake their CV or lie at interviews. It might land you a job, but then you have to keep the lies going indefinitely, living in fear of being found out. Is it worth it ?
- laurieg 10y agoPeople do all sorts of crazy things for 100 bucks. If you fraudulently get a job as a programmer you might be making thousands and thousands more than you would otherwise. It's not hard to see the incentive.
- randomdata 10y agoTo ask if it is worth it, one must ask what is the risk? If the biggest threat is that you lose your job, you don't have much to lose. After all, that is the same place you would be if you didn't try at all. And if you can gain something in the process, which seems quite likely here, you're already well ahead of the game.
- dragonwriter 10y agoIf maintaining the illusion requires unauthorized outsourcing of work (and, therefore, exfiltration of proprietary company information to third parties), then the risk extends beyond losing your job.
- randomdata 10y agoOn the other hand, if the agreement allows outsourcing of work, that's good business sense.
- HeyLaughingBoy 10y ago
- MrBuddyCasino 10y agoI've seen similar cases, and while they may appear to be successful for astoundingly long periods of time, ultimately most (unfortunately, not all) of those guys will fall on their face. Realize that your ability to continuously put in the effort required to become really good is a superpower, even though to you its just following your passion. Many people cannot manage this, and its a massive advantage.
- branchless 10y ago> One of them realizes that she's way over and since I was not helping, she decided to outsource it to Fiverr Management material! (office space)
- crispyambulance 10y ago> ... basically got into CS because she had heard that SE/CS Majors made "big bucks" Unfortunately, this is also how many people decide to go into law and medicine.
- randomdata 10y agoWhy is that unfortunate? That's the entire purpose of high prices: To alert others that supply is not keeping up with demand and that their help is needed. Choosing a job, or anything else, because of "big bucks" is exactly what "big buck" offers are meant to achieve. If you are suggesting that we only want doctors and lawyers who are truly passionate about what they do, then artificial price ceilings are necessary to indicate to others that they are not needed. However, in doing that you create a shortage situation.
- nkrisc 10y agoEither they will eventually learn and become competent while faking it or they'll implode spectacularly. Either one of those outcomes is nearly a given.
- wott 10y agoIt doesn't matter if they implode: they will immediately start mail-bombing a thousand companies (for they don't care about the company purpose, the job content or anything) and will eventually get hired at one of them (and more easily than the first time because they can now put a company name on their CV).
- bluedino 10y ago>> Why am I getting paid less to do more honest work? You never count another man's money.
- Mouse47 10y agoI don't see what this comment brings to the discussion. I think it's obvious that the salary discrepancy and the skill discrepancy don't match up. Since salary defines 'market value' of a developer it's worth exploring why the market behaves this way. And I say this as a developer and also as someone who's got input on hiring decisions.
- JackFr 10y agoThe higher salary is compensation for taking on more risk -- that is working for a company whose future is shakier. I'd say a company who hires like that is likely to go under.
- imron 10y ago> Why am I getting paid less to do more honest work? Why aren't you applying for the jobs that they are applying for?
- wpietri 10y agoI'm not him, but here's one good answer: who wants to work for a company populated with frauds and run by idiots who don't know how to hire or manage? I like getting things done. I like working with smart, sane, kind people. I like working on good code. As long as I can make a decent living somewhere like that, there's no plausible salary that would make me give up that.
- imron 10y agoAnd that's a perfectly valid answer! But if these people with little/no experience are getting paid higher salaries, it strikes me that ohstopitu is probably being paid under market rates at their current position and there will be companies with smart, sane, kind people and good code bases offering similar (or greater) salaries. There are dozens of other reasons why it might not make sense to apply for those other jobs, but all of those are decisions and tradeoffs for you to make. If salary is the overriding concern, it's probably an easy fix.
- wpietri 10y agoIt could be, but I don't think this is good evidence for ohstopitu being underpaid. One way terrible companies get people to join despite being terrible is by paying more. As an example, I took a lower salary at a nonprofit because I cared about the mission. Or at the other end of the spectrum, financial trading companies pay a fair bit more because they have no mission but money, and are often unpleasant places to work.
- imron 10y ago> but I don't think this is good evidence for ohstopitu being underpaid That's a fair enough point. My original post was just to point out that the answer to ohstopitu's original question is not some great mystery, and all they need to do is answer the question I posed back, because it's exactly the same answer to both questions.
- eoin_murphy 10y agoThis is probably more possible now given the ease with which a fraud can get someone else to do their work for them (I remember a news story doing the rounds of an experienced developer doing all of this and outsourcing all their work to India). But of course, this isn't new behavior and because we work in a job which is seen as well paid, so fraudsters will try to get something for nothing. See: http://thedailywtf.com/articles/The_Brillant_Paula_Bean http://thedailywtf.com/articles/The_Brillant_Paula_Bean
- scruple 10y ago> she decided to outsource it to Fiverr This reminds me of a story from 2013 where a developer at Verizon had outsourced his job to a Chinese firm. He was praised as being a top developer but was eventually found out. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/01/16/169528579/outsourced-employee-sends-own-job-to-china-surfs-web http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/01/16/169528579/...
- greenhatman 10y ago>Both graduated 4 years later, just as clueless but with degrees. How?! I don't have a degree. But how? How can you get a degree and still be clueless? >Somehow they land interviews, and both of them gets jobs at this fancy startup (making way more than me). Either you are doing something very wrong, like not negotiating right, and should be paid more, or my understanding of the universe has just been flipped on its head.