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> This process, which is called fact checking, by one of the most esteemed newspapers in the nation... Trump may very well have a very dubious relationship wit

by knz 10y ago

> This process, which is called fact checking, by one of the most esteemed newspapers in the nation... Trump may very well have a very dubious relationship with the truth, but I have no faith that "fact checking" is going to save us. I'm torn on this. The truth, especially if it's from multiple sources, still matters. The challenge is to break through the partisan barrier and unfortunately I think that can only be done on a personal level. Personal credibility can break through partisanship far more effectively than any reposted article can.

mseebach 10y ago
Of course the truth matters. My argument is that fact checkers won't (can't) have a central role (they have a supporting one, sure) in working out the truth, as the GP posited. A statement like "Washington has gotten rich off the backs of the rest of the country" can be both true and false, depending on which interpretations and assumptions you apply when evaluating it. WaPo decided on a (fairly lazy, IMO) false evaluation, but you can easily do the opposite: The federal government has grown, it's financed by taxes predominantly collected in the rest of the country and directly or indirectly, the federal government dominates employment in DC. There - 100% correct, verifiable facts that support the original statement. But why is this true of DC? Perhaps it's a good thing that we have highly paid professional management of the federal government, and that this is geographically concentrated? Perhaps everything is more effective, with better services and ultimately cheaper than if the same agencies had been geographically spread out, devolved to states or cities, or didn't exist at all? How do you decide that? There are decades of argument (roughly 25, to be exact) about the proper size and organisation of the federal government -- these are fundamental areas of disagreement between reasonable people and the best fact checker in the world won't get you closer to settling that.
pmcintyre 10y ago
Francis Bacon cast "truth" as an almost impossible thing to discern, being influenced by tribal, cave, marketplace and theater influences, especially cave. The Great Divide between Conservatives and Progressives is Conservatives keep pointing to truth as an unchanging thing while Progressives use "truth" as a tool to dupe fools. The Enlightenment took Western man from Revealed Religion to Natural Law to Materialistic Psychology to Self-Realization to Self-Religion. Bacon would say Western man has returned to the cave, except now, man is god.

by knz 10y ago

mseebach 10y ago

Of course the truth matters. My argument is that fact checkers won't (can't) have a central role (they have a supporting one, sure) in working out the truth, as the GP posited. A statement like "Washington has gotten rich off the backs of the rest of the country" can be both true and false, depending on which interpretations and assumptions you apply when evaluating it. WaPo decided on a (fairly lazy, IMO) false evaluation, but you can easily do the opposite: The federal government has grown, it's financed by taxes predominantly collected in the rest of the country and directly or indirectly, the federal government dominates employment in DC. There - 100% correct, verifiable facts that support the original statement. But why is this true of DC? Perhaps it's a good thing that we have highly paid professional management of the federal government, and that this is geographically concentrated? Perhaps everything is more effective, with better services and ultimately cheaper than if the same agencies had been geographically spread out, devolved to states or cities, or didn't exist at all? How do you decide that? There are decades of argument (roughly 25, to be exact) about the proper size and organisation of the federal government -- these are fundamental areas of disagreement between reasonable people and the best fact checker in the world won't get you closer to settling that.

pmcintyre 10y ago

Francis Bacon cast "truth" as an almost impossible thing to discern, being influenced by tribal, cave, marketplace and theater influences, especially cave. The Great Divide between Conservatives and Progressives is Conservatives keep pointing to truth as an unchanging thing while Progressives use "truth" as a tool to dupe fools. The Enlightenment took Western man from Revealed Religion to Natural Law to Materialistic Psychology to Self-Realization to Self-Religion. Bacon would say Western man has returned to the cave, except now, man is god.