4 ms·

Notice that 10,000 euros is nothing; as a free lance consultant, you can invoice easily much more than that monthly. So basically they're tracking everybody.

kuschku 10y ago
Something like 60% of the people only do transfers over 10'000 Euro once a year or less. Most people earn far less, and only ever transfer such large amounts when they buy a car.
vidarh 10y ago
While I agree it's not a high amount claiming that accounts to "basically tracking everybody" is ludicrous. Someone billing 10k Euro a month would easily be in the top 10% earners pretty much everywhere. E.g. in the UK, assuming thats 10k of income before tax would place you in the 97th percentile [1]. Even half that would place you in the 90th percentile. Most people never transfer amounts higher than that other than as part of e.g. a house or car purchase. [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-from-1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-f...
- Xylakant 10y ago
  You obviously have never worked as a freelance consultant. 10k per month is not unusual. That figure includes all cost and taxes, usually even VAT. It also includes all travel-related expenses which can easily exeed thousand EUR if you need to be on-site for a month. It's not even close to 10k personal income in the end
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - PJDK 10y ago
    Surely freelance consultants shifting that much cash around are just the sort of people that might be in a position to pull some tax shenanigans?
    - vidarh 10y ago
      True - I get calls regularly from people wanting me to invoice through shady schemes involving offshore trusts and "loans" that will never be called in.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    I do work as a freelance consultant right now. I agree that 10k per month is not unusual for consultants, but that was not what I disagreed with. I disagreed with the conclusion that this means tracking basically everyone, and I gave evidence of this not being the case for the UK, where if your gross income before tax is even half that, it puts you in the 90th percentile of earners. Even 1/3 of that would place you in the 77th percentile. I've never been close to taking out less than 1/3 of what I invoice. But just in case: The 50th percentile for the UK is GBP 21k/year, or a bit over 24k Euro/year according to the source I provided.
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      It's more common than you think. Many poorer populations don't trust or understand banking, or work under the table. Either way, they stash pipes of cash. It's not uncommon for these folks to make huge cash deposits to buy a car or whatever. In the US, the $10,000 threshold is a formal number that requires a specific form. $5,000 transactions are reported, and a bank official can flag any transaction. Former NY governor Spitzer was caught patronizing escorts when a bank official flagged a smaller transaction as a potential "structuring" attempt.
      - dpark 10y ago
        > It's more common than you think. Many poorer populations don't trust or understand banking, or work under the table. Either way, they stash pipes of cash. If you're poor, you're probably not stashing tens of thousands in cash. I bet the percentage of people who both qualify as poor and have $10K in cash on hand is low single digits. > It's not uncommon for these folks to make huge cash deposits to buy a car or whatever. Why would you deposit $10K to buy a car instead of carrying your cash to the car dealer? Also, why are you buying a car that costs >$10K if you're poor?
      - vidarh 10y ago
        Poor people in the UK at least don't buy 10k cars.
kowdermeister 10y ago
I'm all eyes and ears :)

kuschku 10y ago

Something like 60% of the people only do transfers over 10'000 Euro once a year or less. Most people earn far less, and only ever transfer such large amounts when they buy a car.

vidarh 10y ago

While I agree it's not a high amount claiming that accounts to "basically tracking everybody" is ludicrous. Someone billing 10k Euro a month would easily be in the top 10% earners pretty much everywhere. E.g. in the UK, assuming thats 10k of income before tax would place you in the 97th percentile [1]. Even half that would place you in the 90th percentile. Most people never transfer amounts higher than that other than as part of e.g. a house or car purchase. [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-from-1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-f...

Xylakant 10y ago
You obviously have never worked as a freelance consultant. 10k per month is not unusual. That figure includes all cost and taxes, usually even VAT. It also includes all travel-related expenses which can easily exeed thousand EUR if you need to be on-site for a month. It's not even close to 10k personal income in the end
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- PJDK 10y ago
  Surely freelance consultants shifting that much cash around are just the sort of people that might be in a position to pull some tax shenanigans?
  - vidarh 10y ago
    True - I get calls regularly from people wanting me to invoice through shady schemes involving offshore trusts and "loans" that will never be called in.
- vidarh 10y ago
  I do work as a freelance consultant right now. I agree that 10k per month is not unusual for consultants, but that was not what I disagreed with. I disagreed with the conclusion that this means tracking basically everyone, and I gave evidence of this not being the case for the UK, where if your gross income before tax is even half that, it puts you in the 90th percentile of earners. Even 1/3 of that would place you in the 77th percentile. I've never been close to taking out less than 1/3 of what I invoice. But just in case: The 50th percentile for the UK is GBP 21k/year, or a bit over 24k Euro/year according to the source I provided.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    It's more common than you think. Many poorer populations don't trust or understand banking, or work under the table. Either way, they stash pipes of cash. It's not uncommon for these folks to make huge cash deposits to buy a car or whatever. In the US, the $10,000 threshold is a formal number that requires a specific form. $5,000 transactions are reported, and a bank official can flag any transaction. Former NY governor Spitzer was caught patronizing escorts when a bank official flagged a smaller transaction as a potential "structuring" attempt.
    - dpark 10y ago
      > It's more common than you think. Many poorer populations don't trust or understand banking, or work under the table. Either way, they stash pipes of cash. If you're poor, you're probably not stashing tens of thousands in cash. I bet the percentage of people who both qualify as poor and have $10K in cash on hand is low single digits. > It's not uncommon for these folks to make huge cash deposits to buy a car or whatever. Why would you deposit $10K to buy a car instead of carrying your cash to the car dealer? Also, why are you buying a car that costs >$10K if you're poor?
    - vidarh 10y ago
      Poor people in the UK at least don't buy 10k cars.

kowdermeister 10y ago

I'm all eyes and ears :)